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ISRAELI PALESTINIAN PEACE SIMULATION - Shared screen with speaker view
Omar Huda
42:56
I’m wondering why none of the proposed speakers are Palestinian
Libby Traubman
43:27
sometimes they are just not this list
Max B
44:52
Curious why no Palestinians are speaking ; not invited, didn’t accept invitation? Or?
Libby Traubman
44:54
there has been a variety
Don Raphael
45:51
Would have been good to have a "Not Sure" option
Suzanne Looms
46:02
Interesting video. It presents the 2 sides as equals. Palestinians don't receive billions in aid from USA for their military. USA doesn't condone/turn a blind eye to any little attacks by Palestinians, but makes excuses for Palestinian buildings being bombed & journalists being killed, not to mention unarmed Palestinians murdered & children imprisoned. The Palestinian authority does little for Palestinians and seems in the pocket of Israel.
Alberto Kremnitzer
48:45
You must be kidding."Palestinians don't receive billions in aid from USA for their military."Of course not, they allocate resources provided for building, educating, and feeding yje inhabitants of both PA and Gaza. They do not need resources for arms, they have where to get it.
Carl Goldberg
49:22
How can there be a common narrative when the Palestinian narrative, based on the naqba, excludes the existence of a Jewish state in any borders?
Giacomo Valentini
49:26
Suzanne, the goal of the IPC is to overcome the obvious indignation and recriminations at the current situation, and chart a new path forward, establish a climate of trust. Once a positive relationship is established, both sides can start exploring the injustices of today and yeasterday, to snure they will not occur again tomorrow.
Carl Goldberg
53:10
Do the "Palestinian" leaders represent their populations? There have been no elections in 15 years.
Host Dan
53:14
The Israeli Palestinian Confederation website address is ipconfederation.org, past simulation recordings are online.
Anna Kouroutzi
55:15
How can we guarantee that the Palestinians will have access to online tools, in order to take part equally in an assumed pre-electoral and electoral processes?
Anna Kouroutzi
56:16
We all know that in many Palestinian-populated areas, there is no access to internet.
ivan frank
59:11
who initiates this very cool ,idea to theI israelis and Palestinians?
Alberto Kremnitzer
59:35
Does your proposal consider the mindset of, the education the Palestinians are provided with?How will this confederation accommodate the Jihad principle?After decades of a Peace treaty signed between Israel and both Egypt and Jordan, how peaceful is the population of both countries towards Israel and the Jews?Are we supposed to ignore what's happening today?
Judith Polson
59:56
Two states are not on the table.
Judith Polson
01:00:20
He cannot accept one government. But it must happen!!
Anna Kouroutzi
01:01:01
@ivan frank, at the beginning of this simulation, we are supposed to supersede what has happened in the past and what is happening today, in order to proceed in a futuristic scenario, through these assumptions.
Dan Tennant-Ralphs
01:01:57
I applaud all folks with a vested interest in this topic. salaam shalom from Madrid 🙏
Judith Polson
01:02:52
I think there would have to be an election on whether to accept one government for all. But first the plan must be given a chance for overview, explanation, the good and the bad of the one government.
Anna Kouroutzi
01:03:19
That
Anna Kouroutzi
01:04:37
The only issue is the very low numbers of final voters. How can we guarantee that this low number would represent the public will...?
Carl Goldberg
01:05:26
What is the point of making assumptions which are totally unrealistic?
Janine Edmée Hakim
01:06:34
What independant body, trusted by all sides, would monitor and certify the results of this election process ?
Omar Huda
01:10:28
Hamas is a fact on the ground, just as Israel & US constantly speak of "Fact on the ground" when it comes to Israeli interest.
ivan frank
01:12:59
who initites the idea?I voted asisraeli
Charles Fredricks
01:13:21
it is my understanding that through blockchain technology secure votes can take place, as in the nation of Estonia, where 40% of all voting takes place online
Carl Goldberg
01:13:55
This is not a constitution. It is, at best, a mission statement.
Janine Edmée Hakim
01:15:06
Is this proposal similar to the EU vis-a-vis the individuals European governments?
Giacomo Valentini
01:15:15
The US bill of rights would be a mission statement if the federal US government did not hold authority
Charles Fredricks
01:15:59
In a realist approach to politics, centers that currently hold sway (power) over their various populations are recognized as having power, but this does not infer endorsement
Carl Goldberg
01:16:12
The notion of a secular government contradicts the Palestinian Arab population which wants an Arab/Islamic state based on sharia law.
Alberto Kremnitzer
01:16:36
What about religion? Will it be a separate institution from the government?
ivan frank
01:16:51
does this govt have an army?
Carl Goldberg
01:17:35
Menachem Klein is correct. There can be no government without the power to enforce its laws.
Max B
01:18:05
to Carl, yes, agree; and the Israeli gov that wants one run according tohalacha that doesn't recognise non-Orthodox. Therein is the impass….
Carl Goldberg
01:19:03
To Matt: The Israeli government does NOT want a halacha government.
Charles Fredricks
01:20:26
To Carl: the manner in which Israel conducts policy, the same can be said in that in favors the Jewish religion over the rights of those of other faiths. This is seen in immigration policy, land, etc etc, without being explicitly stated, so that Israel can still represent itself as a democracy to Western governments; but this does not fool much of anyone else
Max B
01:21:18
Not hte current PM, but ifyou looke at composition of Knesset and the previous PM tha tmight result in a different assessment; long disucssion - especially since we probably have different perceptions about yoru original statement. Anon (!)
Carl Goldberg
01:22:34
This whole exercise is futile because it is based on assumptions, not on reality. You are essentially assuming your conclusions.
Judith Polson
01:23:14
I thought we were voting for just part I.
Janine Edmée Hakim
01:24:25
Why open voting?
Anna Kouroutzi
01:25:27
Because in a representative democracy the representatives need to be identified, to give stature to the will of their voters.
Alberto Kremnitzer
01:25:35
Carl, I agree with you.I'm affraid we are under a wishful thinking process.
Giacomo Valentini
01:28:05
Wishful thinking ... this simulation shows a new way forward. Is it possible? Yes. How can it happen? if enough people believe in this it can happen.
Carl Goldberg
01:29:15
That's a very big "if"! The facts on the ground contradict this "if".
Anna Kouroutzi
01:33:38
On the idea that Palestinians are sovereign over their own people, their heritage, their rights, and obligations towards a new confederative government.
Anna Kouroutzi
01:34:48
Sovereignty over their lands, resources, equity, etc., as well.
Alberto Kremnitzer
01:37:58
Giacomo, what is the mindset of the Palestinians towards democracy? How will they conciliate Jihad with a eaceful coexistence with the Israelis?What is the approach of Egyptian and Jordaninan population towards Israel after decades of both Peace Treaties?
Carl Goldberg
01:38:36
The Arabs of Gaza and the "West Bank" have autonomy but not complete sovereignty.
Carl Goldberg
01:40:34
The notion that all religions are equal contradicts the fundamental doctrine of Islam. How can you ever get religious Moslems to agree with this?
Anna Kouroutzi
01:40:55
I agree with @Giacomo Valentini, with his example of the European Union. And, if I may go back in history, that was the example set in Byzantium (Eastern Roman Empire).
Franke Wilmer
01:43:49
Alberto - there is no single "Palestinian" mindset or "Israeli" mindset - I have spent a lot of time listening to nonviolent anti-occupation activists and leaders from both sides. They are a minority in each side, for sure, but they work hard to mobilize support and slowly, they succeed, and admittedly their efforts are also an antidote to despair. Many Palestinian nonviolent activists, if they are Muslim, regard Jihad as an internal spiritual struggle against other-harming impulses - many Palestinian anti-occupation/peace activists are also Christian who hold MLK as an inspiration. We cannot paint with a broad brush. I must say though that it is Palestinians living under military occupation who pay the highest price.
Carl Goldberg
01:45:15
Jihad as only internal struggle? Go tell that to Hamas and all the imams in all the mosques!
Anna Kouroutzi
01:47:03
Thank you @Menachem Klein. We either have only borders, with other neighbouring countries, or no Confederation at all. If we enforce oppressive methods and frameworks, then we cannot have an equal and tolerant democracy.
Franke Wilmer
01:47:07
Carl - you missed my point or misread my comment. I said "many nonviolent Palestinian Muslim PEACE ACTIVISTS regard it as such. And actually outside of the territories, there are many Muslims who hold the same view of jihad as an INTERNAL struggle. Not ALL - MANY.
Giacomo Valentini
01:47:33
Alberto, the IPC is directed to all the people who are living in Israel-Palestine, irrespective of their religious beliefs, language, or belonging to any group. It addresses people, individual human beings not groups
Anna Kouroutzi
01:47:48
Great and crucial point, @Menachem Klein. We either have only borders, with other neighbouring countries, or no Confederation at all. If we enforce oppressive methods and frameworks, then we cannot have an equal and tolerant democracy.
Anna Kouroutzi
01:48:30
Edgy methods can never be considered as "good".
Carl Goldberg
01:49:03
Franke, yes, perhaps there are "many" Muslims who think of jihad as only internal struggle, but they are far outweighed by the entire Islamic religious community which bases its notion of jihad on the Koran and the Sunnah.
Alberto Kremnitzer
01:51:25
Giacomo, watch the sermons at various Mosques all over the world, particularly in Egypt, Jordan, PA and Gaza. It is a very good way to get to know the real mindset of Palestinians and Muslims.And let's not forget Taqiya or Taqiyya.https://www.memri.org/
Anna Kouroutzi
01:51:25
Judith, since you are representing the Palestinians, shouldn't you have the right to address your question?
Don Raphael
01:52:10
If the IPC is a representative body of a common government entity, then allowing ISR or PAL entities the power to veto denies any legitimacy of its authority, it is in essence an advisory body.
Carl Goldberg
01:52:34
Why would Hamas, Fatah and Israel vote to have a confederation police force when they each have their own police forces already?
Giacomo Valentini
01:53:28
The IPC seeks to establish its authority not by force but by the authority of its resolutions. If an elected IPC parliament passes good quality legislation, it has a chance of being accepted by the existing governments.
Carl Goldberg
01:54:53
Giacomo, there is no chance of any confederation legislation being accepted which contradicts the existing narrative and policy of the existing regimes.
Alberto Kremnitzer
01:55:03
Sorry Giacomo, that's wishful thinking.
Anna Kouroutzi
01:56:03
All major changes in world history started with wishful thinking.
Alberto Kremnitzer
01:57:20
Anna, the climate changes we are testifying all over the world do not give us the time needed to implement this wishful proposal.
Giacomo Valentini
01:58:34
In 1975 the EU established an elected European Parliament. It took over ten years for that parliament to acquire authority - it happened because EU leaders finally, reluctantly, accepted that it was the only way to overcome conflicting national priorities. You need to start from the unlikely in order to change the narrative
Alberto Kremnitzer
01:59:55
Giacomo, you wish to compare the European mindset with the Palestinian/Arab mindset?In what world do you live in?
Giacomo Valentini
02:00:29
In the 1950, most Germans and Dutch considered Italians and Spanish to be lazy, disorganized and corrupt. Today Germans are taking orders from an Italian central bank president and accepting a Spanish EU foreign affairs commissioner
Carl Goldberg
02:00:41
A common confederation education center??? Who determines the curriculum???
Alberto Kremnitzer
02:02:21
It is a well-known fact that water and oil do not mix.Let's not ignore this fact, please!
Anna Kouroutzi
02:03:50
We all agree, here, that checkpoints represent oppressive tactics against Palestinians, and the unacceptable yesterday's and today's status quo. Therefore, it should not be a part of a legislation for a Confederation, but a piece of legislation on behalf of Israel, only..!!!
Judith Polson
02:04:04
The P.A. is not a legitimate government or police force. They are subcontracted by Israel as Menachem said. The Confederation needs a police force that will be legitimate for Israelis and Palestinians.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:04:51
I agree on this, @Judith Polson!
Don Raphael
02:04:51
If this admirable legislation was passed, then who will fund and administer the considerable expenditure and effort to create an educational & commerce enter and hospitals, etc,
Carl Goldberg
02:05:00
No, Anna, we do not all agree on that. As long as the "Palestinians" are determined to murder Israelis, the checkpoints are necessary as a matter of security.
Libby Traubman
02:05:52
The cost for all of this will be addressed.. it is an issueof course
Anna Kouroutzi
02:06:02
The Israeli forces murder Palestinians every day, how about that @Carl Goldberg? Here, we are trying to stop and overcome this regime.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:06:27
That is the reason and the motivating force behind these simulations.
Carl Goldberg
02:06:36
No, Anna, the "Palestinians" murder Israelis whenever they get the chance.
ivan frank
02:06:39
a check point isn iot a border qualandia is worst on e i have been at and i am israeli citizenmanachemcant accept assumptions poor not thinking guest.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:06:48
No murder between Israelis and Palestinians, anymore!!!!
Alberto Kremnitzer
02:07:21
Unfortunately I have to leave. Shanah tovah to al!theankhprojecteducational@gmail.com
Anna Kouroutzi
02:07:47
Enjoy your evening @Alberto Kremnitzer!
Huseyin Gari
02:07:53
maybe If Israel stopped striking gaza and oppressing the Palestinians it would be different. blaming Islamic jihad for killing 5 kids then they admit it
Huseyin Gari
02:08:10
do u think we are blind to whats going on it'd everywhere to see
Carl Goldberg
02:08:24
Yes, Anna, no more murder! Then let's start by abolishing Fatah's pay-to-slay policy and martyrdom cult!
Anna Kouroutzi
02:09:56
You do that, @Carl, and we will try to abolish oppression, genocide, inequality, and intolerance, on behalf of the current Israel government.
Huseyin Gari
02:10:13
bravo Anna
Ghattas Sayej
02:10:51
I am trying to talk, but I do not get the chance. I will write me comments instead.All what you are talking about does not help if the Palestinisns will not get their rights as any Israeli
Carl Goldberg
02:11:12
Anna, how dare you lie by accusing Israel of "genocide"???!!! The Palestinian Arab population is increasing by leaps and bounds. Some genocide!
Anna Kouroutzi
02:13:13
I am telling the ICJ's truth, @Carl
Huseyin Gari
02:13:15
I know u are Greek and I am Turkish but it doesn't make a difference what we are as long as we are working towards the same goal of peace! its very clear some people don't want that for whatever reason
Huseyin Gari
02:13:32
propaganda doesn't work anymore
Carl Goldberg
02:14:43
@Anna -- you are not telling the truth. You arre parroting the antisemitic slander.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:14:56
@Huseyin, we have been living as Byzantines for 1,200 years, side-by-side, during the Dark Ages! If our nations could do that, then the Israelis and Palestinians have so many chances in succeeding a fair and tolerant society/country!!
Anna Kouroutzi
02:15:04
I am really wishing for that!
Rachel Suissa
02:15:28
It has been very interesting. Thank you and Shana Tova.
Franke Wilmer
02:15:46
In an editorial in 2013 Moshe Arens said that the wall is not contributing to Israel's security
Max B
02:16:53
Need ot be cautious: criticising israeli occupation is not NECESSARILY antisemitic (depends context, framing, etc. LIkewise, must be causeto not hid behindth occupation to experss antisemitism . Both require deep thining and deep awarness of one's own prejudices.
Huseyin Gari
02:17:12
@anna I agree totally it's been proven throughout history that things that we never thought possible have become reality. I believe this can happen!
Anna Kouroutzi
02:17:24
Don't you dare and play the anti-Semitic card with any of us, shame on you @Carl Goldberg...! The International Court of Justice gave their verdict 18 months ago, after years of researching and monitoring the area, independently!!!!
Carl Goldberg
02:17:45
@Franke -- Odd how murderous "Palestinian" terrorism dropped off immensely after the wall/fence was built/
Huseyin Gari
02:18:02
also one doesn't have to be a jew to be a zionist so playing the anti semitic card doesn't work it's just a diversion to take away from the real issue.
Samir Twair
02:18:05
wouldn't one state with one secular government make more sense?
Franke Wilmer
02:18:22
Read the editorial Carl. It is the opinion of someone who knows more about Israel's security than either of us.
Carl Goldberg
02:19:00
@Anna -- Yes, I will play the antisemitic card with you because you are clearly on the side of the mortal enemies (Hamas and Fatah) of the only Jewish state in the world. That is antisemitic by definition.
Huseyin Gari
02:19:09
I'm sure Carl knows it all when he's just regurgitating propaganda we have all heard already
Huseyin Gari
02:20:12
maybe the fact the Jewish state was formed by displacing God knows how many Palestinians who can't return who have no rights
Carl Goldberg
02:20:38
@Sanir -- a secular government makes no sense, and is opposed by, religious Moslems.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:21:59
I am not responding to your irrational and racist comments @Carl Goldberg. You are blinded by racial hate against Palestinians, and it showed to everyone here today. Read some International Reports, and then come back here for some mutually fruitful dialogue.
Naaomi Katz
02:24:09
@Anna, you started the racist slurs by accusing Israel of genocide. That is pure unprovable propaganda.
Bob Spies
02:24:16
My opinion: There's no way the current Israel, with its monopoly on power and lack of incentives to change, will ever agree to an IPC--or anything that seriously recognizes the rights of Palestinians. But maybe in the future (perhaps after a loss of unconditional U.S. support) that will change. At that point, it will be important to have ideas like the ones the IPC is discussing available to help move forward.
Carl Goldberg
02:24:19
You, Anna, are supporting the mortal enemies of the Jewish state. Both Hamas and Fatah want the destruction of the Jewish state, and you know that.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:24:53
Please, Carl, stop it, you are interfering with the simulation.
Huseyin Gari
02:25:43
@anna I appreciate that very much. in fact I got Josef on a podcast on Spotify to speak about his plan in detail so we can get it out there to many more people also
Anna Kouroutzi
02:25:46
Read carefully what everyone writes, and answer accordingly.
Carl Goldberg
02:26:50
Thank you, Len!
Dorothea Dorenz
02:27:12
The palestinians will not have rights in their "new" state under hamas and the PLO. So th.at’s a western illusion
Huseyin Gari
02:27:28
len just regurgitation
Huseyin Gari
02:28:30
@anna for sure I will send u the recording. keep up the good work 👏
Naaomi Katz
02:30:12
Zionism was always multifaceted. There was cultural Zionism, religious Zionism and the last wave was political Zionism. And that was in reaction to the Dreyfus affair in the early 1900s.
Max B
02:30:13
For those not familiar with the following, I woudl reommend you read/ listen to , material from Betzelem, Parents' circle, Breaking the Silence, et al. to get additional perpectives from Israeli .
Max B
02:30:26
I thougth Josef said we would not delve into the who did what to whom?
Carl Goldberg
02:31:38
What is wrong with Jews wanting to recreate their homeland in their original homeland?
Don Raphael
02:31:58
Len, your narrative is simpistic hasbara. Question is, where do we go from here?
Carl Goldberg
02:33:22
Yes, Don, where do we go from here considering that both Hamas and Fatah want to create an Arab/Islam sharia state from the River to the Sea?
Dorothea Dorenz
02:33:42
whenever any Arab tries to work with Israelis whether they are Arab israelis or Jews, they get pressured not to do so. cooperation is not what the PLO and Hamas want.
Huseyin Gari
02:34:59
it's as simple as watching a few documentaries on YouTube to easily debunk len and Carl's propaganda. there are so many I would recommend to watch
Dorothea Dorenz
02:35:04
since when do the Palestinains want democracy??? no Arab state has democracy nor do they want one. Shariah law is not democratic law,
Huseyin Gari
02:35:25
where both Jews and Palestinians both tell the truth unlike this kind of boring propaganda
Dorothea Dorenz
02:35:57
THis is laughable: no Arab will remove Islam from his her life! There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Middle East and for sure not in Gaza and the W. Bank.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:36:13
The "where we go from here" is the topic of these simulations. However, if any of us mentions ethnicities & religions in a derogative way, then they show where they are coming from, and cannot possibly work towards a Confederation, but will gladly work against its creation.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:36:42
This is not what we need or wish for these simulations.
Huseyin Gari
02:37:05
so tell me Dorothea how can u have a Jewish and democratic state? and also have u seen how racist the laws are even towards the Arab citizens of Israel. if u think a country that declares itself the JEWISH state would care about the rights of non Jewish citizens u are sadly mistaken
Carl Goldberg
02:37:25
@Anna -- how can there be a confederation with people who want to kill you?
Anna Kouroutzi
02:38:18
We have to consider, then, why the other side wants to exterminate or suppress the people who want to kill you
Anna Kouroutzi
02:38:42
Look at the root of the problem, and the answer will lie there, bare for you to see it.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:39:09
That is why we are all here, @Carl, to make peace, eventually.
Huseyin Gari
02:39:11
@anna not to mention the internal racism that exists between various Jewish communities also
Dorothea Dorenz
02:39:21
Arab towns are operating in Israel under Shariah law. Will the Palestinains have freedom under the PLO and hamas. Hamas would take over te W. Bank if the PLO allowed elections. In any case, hamas would take over violently there if it is allowed to do so.
Huseyin Gari
02:39:28
some people are only here to disrupt
Franke Wilmer
02:39:35
I agree with Prof Klein - The occupation cannot last forever - the only question is how many people will die and suffer before it is over. An Israeli defeat of a violent Palestinian revolt will only drag it out.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:41:36
Palestinians are mostly peaceful people, by nature and nurture, just like Israelis. My homeland's Jewish community is the oldest Jewish community in Europe, and they are all lovely and decent people. That is why I refuse to call any of the sides as inferior or bad, that would be utter nonsense.
Carl Goldberg
02:42:43
@Franke -- unfortunately, until both Hamas and Fatah agree to live in peace alongside Jewish Israel, there is no alternative to Israeli dominance as a matter of survival.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:43:50
@Franke Wilmer we will try our hardest for such situation never to see the light of day, for either side. The only solution is societal therapy which can only be achieved by a tolerant and inclusive education system.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:44:14
Supported by legal frameworks.
Carl Goldberg
02:49:30
What's wrong with a "Jewish state" considering that there are some 22 Arab/Islamic states?
Anna Kouroutzi
02:51:56
Nothing wrong with it, @Carl. As long as we acknowledge the right of others to achieve something similar, in equality.
Carl Goldberg
02:53:39
@Anna -- that cannot happen until "the others" agree to accept the existence of a Jewish Israel. So far, those "others" deny Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in any borders.
Carl Goldberg
02:57:07
Your "one-state" democratic solution is like two lins and a lamb deciding on what to have for dinner.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:57:19
A Jewish State was promised by the United Nations, a long time ago, though a territory in Africa was firstly chosen. Thereafter, land in Europe was chosen, but socio-political events prohibited this idea from being materialised. The history unfolds further, with the Palestinian land to be chosen, but Nakba is a thorn in the relationship between the two nations. That is why a second or an everyday Nakba should not be repeated/continued.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:58:29
A Jewish State is a reality, and everyone has to acknowledge its legitimacy and continuity.
Anna Kouroutzi
02:59:36
Improvement on the current regimes is paramount, right now.
Carl Goldberg
02:59:38
Thank you for stating that, Anna! No go and convince the leaders and population of Gaza, Judea and Samaria!
Naaomi Katz
03:00:08
How can we say Arab Israelis are second class citizens when they serve in the Supreme Court and government?
Anna Kouroutzi
03:00:28
Education is the answer, @Carl, and I am trying my best every day for contributing on that.
Carl Goldberg
03:05:49
@Anna -- I agree that education is supremely important. What are you doing to counter the antisemitic hatred being taught in the Gaza and Fatah schools and cultural institutions?
Anna Kouroutzi
03:06:44
I do my bit, @Carl, from where I live, and online.
Don Raphael
03:09:10
Thank you all for your efforts and this spirited dialogue.
Ty Ebright
03:09:28
This has been the best discussion in months! Thank you all.
Anna Kouroutzi
03:09:30
I hope the same for everyone here, and especially you, @Carl, to do what is best for bi-cultural tolerance and, eventually, acceptance.
Anna Kouroutzi
03:10:39
Thank you, everyone!
Janine Edmée Hakim
03:10:39
Thank you