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DIDComm User Group - Shared screen with gallery view
Brian
16:40
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ksqVxeCAvqLjr67htWZ4JYaSnI8TUZIO7tDMF5npHTo/edit#slide=id.g138855cddd3_0_9
Drummond Reed
16:46
Thanks!
Kent Bull
16:57
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ksqVxeCAvqLjr67htWZ4JYaSnI8TUZIO7tDMF5npHTo/edit#slide=id.g138855cddd3_0_9
Kent Bull
17:03
Oh, thanks Brian
Henk van Cann
19:19
bit.ly link : Https://bit.ly/3BHxUCb
Phil
20:25
Why did he hate figs?
Drummond Reed
20:36
I’ve always loved that quote
Drummond Reed
22:14
Head nodding rigorously ;-)
Kalin Nicolov
22:50
LOL - I thought I was alone nodding to the screen. Bless your heart @Drummond
Kaliya Identity Woman
25:08
VCs are to just about people entitlements
Kaliya Identity Woman
25:12
They are for organizations and things
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
26:07
VCs are for anything that represents something concrete and true.
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
26:39
https://hyperonomy.com/2022/11/19/facts-opinions-and-folklore-a-preliminary-taxonomy/
Nick Reynolds
26:54
yeah I'd like to hear more about ACDCs vs w3c VCs at some point
Samuel Smith
28:29
@nick The ACDC WG meets every other Tuesday at 10 am ET
Drummond Reed
28:58
Meeting details are on the ToIP Calendar: https://wiki.trustoverip.org/display/HOME/Calendar+of+ToIP+Meetings
Rodolfo Miranda
29:53
@Nick: some discussion here: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/982#issuecomment-1357949724
Nick Reynolds
30:05
thanks
Daniel Bachenheimer
32:21
https://trustoverip.org/blog/2023/01/05/the-toip-trust-spanning-protocol/
Daniel Bachenheimer
32:49
previous link - thanks to Drummond
Kalin Nicolov
32:58
Such a wonderful celebration of the communities, what a lovely way to kick off the year.
Phil
33:21
đź‘Ť
Jacques Bikoundou
33:33
+1
Kaliya Identity Woman
33:39
This is because of the LF/JDF relationship with ISO - not a special thing for ToIP - DIF also has this capability being under LF
Daniel Bachenheimer
33:47
đź‘Ť
Markus Sabadello
34:32
I really liked the characterization of the different orgs/communities, and what their respective achievements are.
Kalin Nicolov
34:44
+1
Darrell O'Donnell
34:52
+1
Jacques Bikoundou
35:04
+1
Drummond Reed
35:05
+1
Wenjing Chu
35:09
+1
Steve McCown
35:19
+1
Daniel Bachenheimer
35:39
đź‘Ź
Judith Fleenor (Trust Over IP)
35:55
You might be interested it reading about the evolution of the ToIP Stack, if you want to understand better where we’ve come from, where we are now, and where we are going: https://trustoverip.org/our-work/evolution-of-the-toip-stack/
Neil Thomson
38:43
+1 for avoiding duplication
Drummond Reed
38:53
Hear hear to interdependence
Darrell O'Donnell
40:46
+1 on interdependency
Darrell O'Donnell
41:43
We have really solid puzzle pieces that can fit together quite nicely.
Jacques Bikoundou
41:54
Interdependency appears more challenging from the human side than the technical side.
Darrell O'Donnell
42:37
@Jacques - well said. It’s hard to get momentum behind the tech work when the business/governance (human) side isn’t aligned well.
Drummond Reed
42:49
+1
Drummond Reed
45:32
I like it — “as simple as possible but no simpler”
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
46:44
RE: We have really solid puzzle pieces that can fit together quite nicelyIf you know what the puzzle on the cover of the box is supposed to look like. Having pieces that fit "quite nicely" isn't enough
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
48:40
What puzzle picture are we putting together/working towards?
Drummond Reed
49:01
The ToIP Technology Architecture Specification has the full specs: https://trustoverip.org/our-work/technical-architecture/
Judith Fleenor (Trust Over IP)
49:16
https://trustoverip.org/blog/2023/01/05/the-toip-trust-spanning-protocol/
Daniel Bachenheimer
49:37
and this is the Trust Spanning Layer Blog Entry [great summary] that Drummond spear-headed: trustoverip.org/blog/2023/01/05/the-toip-trust-spanning-protocol/
Kaliya Identity Woman
51:06
I don’t know that any of this makes sense.
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
51:19
I agree
Kaliya Identity Woman
51:31
Clearly OPenIDV4 (or whatever it is being called) moves credentials around - they don’t use DIDComm and don’t need to
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
52:04
With constraints and limitations. it isn't a full solution outside their target uses.
Drummond Reed
52:08
OIDC4VC is a trust task protocol
Kaliya Identity Woman
52:27
I think our community is so focused on its “ideals” for “the perfect thing” we are loosing site of the need to actually solve real world problems for real customers who really need implementations
Alex
52:27
I think enforcing peer functionality at the protocol level is crucial from preventing bad actors! I believe that’s why protocols like I2P is more stable than Tor!
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
52:38
for example, it moves credentials around, and not other types of messages for other purposes.
Kalin Nicolov
52:53
+1 on the ambassadorship of OWF
Drummond Reed
55:45
Wow, you can really start to see how all the puzzle pieces can fit together.
Kaliya Identity Woman
56:41
You say that as if DIF is “one thing” and “decides” - its a bunch of working groups.
Kalin Nicolov
57:05
am I alone in thinking this is replay of the LF creation event, where OSDL and FSG came together, some 20ish years ago?
Kalin Nicolov
57:26
I have a good GUT feeling about this ;-)
Darrell O'Donnell
57:32
it’s similar to the alignment in the geospatial space in the late 90s as well.
Kaliya Identity Woman
57:36
Looking around the room there are key people who are leaders in this industry who are NOT on this call.
Drummond Reed
57:39
+1
Phil
57:52
RE: OIDC4VC is a trust task protocol
danielsaeuberli
58:06
+1 requirements by the real world will drive what the puzzle should look like when assembled. Though, I believe in applying 80/20, we’ll all be able to come up with an at least an 80% good enough picture, when we all collaborate and bring needs of the various projects together though common method(s). Dividing is the way to conquer…
Drummond Reed
58:11
Yes, Daniel recognized that this would be only the first of a series of these calls that would be needed
danielsaeuberli
58:31
1+
Nick Reynolds
58:33
I think the specifics proposed here are obviously going to be controversial, but the general idea of trying to reduce duplicated* work is an important concept to think deeply about in these types of meetings
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
59:01
Daniel has described the "what" but I think the "how" is just as important ...perhaps more challenging.
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
59:09
Because we
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
59:14
Because we
Phil
59:27
OIDC4VC has lots of implementation strategies that change the properties of the resulting VC exchange a lot. *IF* you put it on top of DIDComm (or whatever comes out of this), then you get properties like not having a phone hime problem.
Drummond Reed
59:31
The ToIP Trust Spanning Protocol Task Force is just starting next week. See the ToIP blog post for a full background: https://trustoverip.org/blog/2023/01/05/the-toip-trust-spanning-protocol/
Andor Kesselman
59:34
+1 to Nick’s comment.
Kaliya Identity Woman
01:00:15
You all keep coming up with “More ideal” things to do/build but they feel pretty disconnected from the market.
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
01:00:33
Because we're running out of time, I'll throw out that this will have more success if there is an agreed upon overarching vision/mission. Each organization has just a bunch of parts currently IMHO.
Nick Reynolds
01:01:14
I think one of the things that draws me to this space is the focus on ideals *over* market concerns... Building from a set of principles.. that's not to say that market concerns can't be included (or that different people/orgs care about different things!)
Alex
01:01:37
+1 Nick
Drummond Reed
01:01:57
Kaliya, there are some of us who rather strongly disagree with you that what Daniel is proposing is “disconnected from the market”. We are laying the ground for where the puck is going, not where it is now.
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
01:03:10
Suppose you have 3 football teams:Buffalo Bills NFL football teamMachester United UK football teamLocal high school football teamWhat does it mean to unify these 3 organizations? Is it possible? What would it take to unify these 3 organizations?
Drummond Reed
01:03:27
I’m very interested in Daniel’s idea of a “GUT” Alliance and how it would work.
Jacques Bikoundou
01:03:39
Controversial? yes! But I think these proposals are workable. They require our human ingenuity.
Kalin Nicolov
01:03:40
+1 on Nick’s suggestion for shared principles and guiding rules
Darrell O'Donnell
01:04:04
footbal - send in Ted Lasso
Drummond Reed
01:04:21
Season 3 is coming in March!
Kalin Nicolov
01:04:31
GUT requires deflating egos and growing cooperation and interdependence (and reliance) on each other
Nick Reynolds
01:04:48
+1 to deflating egos :)
Drummond Reed
01:05:29
+++1
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
01:05:43
I'm forging ahead with an overarching vision for an ecosystem called Web 7.0
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
01:05:45
https://hyperonomy.com/2022/12/12/welcome-to-web-7-0/
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
01:07:04
I'm presenting Part 2 in this timeslot next Monday.
Neil Thomson
01:07:09
Table a GUT (or list of tech/probs/issues that a GUT has to address) then do Gap/Overlap identification
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
01:07:14
The Quarterly Meeting should really be called The Gut Check.
Kalin Nicolov
01:07:29
+1 on the quarterly touch point
Drummond Reed
01:07:31
Love it
Steve Magennis
01:07:34
someone needs to bring gut milk
Jacques Bikoundou
01:08:06
GUT check! you got, it Sam Curren.
Drummond Reed
01:09:04
I must leave to run another meeting, but I’m on board with the next steps for GUT
Andor Kesselman
01:09:14
We’ve aligned on ToIP and DIF on the trust registry/establishment work. Getting cross org collaboration on key items is totally feasible. Maybe that’s a model for how we look about other items.
Markus Sabadello
01:10:10
Peer DIDs have been a work item in DIF's Identifiers&Discovery WG: https://github.com/decentralized-identity/identifiers-discovery/#work-items
Darrell O'Donnell
01:10:18
companies can ship real-world products while things are getting aligned…
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
01:10:52
A lot of "alignment" was proposed ...representing new work
Judith Fleenor (Trust Over IP)
01:10:55
+1 Darrell
Darrell O'Donnell
01:10:56
overlap & often conflict (unintentionally for the most part)
Neil Thomson
01:11:46
Working example of this type of cross-work already happeningThe DIF Data Agreements WG has already essentially pulled people involved in ToIP, MyData, DIF and ISO together....
Nick Reynolds
01:12:25
even the specifics of what orgs are included here are going to be controversial. more important to just let as many communities/people as possible know about this work and see if they're interested
Judith Fleenor (Trust Over IP)
01:12:55
We have to start somewhere for collaboration. If these groups can, then we can invite others as appropriate.
Michael Herman (Web 7.0)
01:13:08
A more "pair-wise" "working together" is more likely to succeed than a GUT.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
01:13:20
this is about so much more than moving credentials around.
Vasily Suvorov (didas.swiss)
01:14:00
Hi all from Switzerland. I’m from DIDAS, a non-profit that has been pushing SSI principles as a foundation for the upcoming E-ID Law. We've been very successful so far and the draft of the law is based on a lot of SSI ideas and values ecosystems' approach. However, this is being increasingly challenged due to a lack of convergence (or vision of) around tech stack/standards or perceived competitiveness in the ecosystem. There are many “pragmatic" voices that suggest that a much simpler, ID only solution should be adopted instead. So I would definitely encourage the direction being discussed here. Hopefully we can see progress here sooner rather than later 🙂
Daniel Bachenheimer
01:14:04
everyone has mission objectives
Kalin Nicolov
01:14:40
timely input from the market, thank you @Vasily
Judith Fleenor (Trust Over IP)
01:14:40
We are already working the ODIC etc. in other places, this is not what this call for collocation is about.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
01:15:06
FWIW, I've never had a CHAPI rep communicate with me in any way.
danielsaeuberli
01:15:22
+1 on @Vasily’s comment from switzerland
Judith Fleenor (Trust Over IP)
01:15:24
“collaboration” starts in a small subset is good.
Kaliya Identity Woman
01:15:39
OK - well maybe call up Manu and say you are interested in how CHAPI can include DIDComm as part of their next work.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
01:15:52
maybe have manu call me up. why is the work all my job?
Kaliya Identity Woman
01:15:58
They are aligning with OpenID to really tackle the wallet choice locking problem.
Kaliya Identity Woman
01:16:16
I will ask Manu where he has put forward the idea and encourage him to be in touch.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
01:16:42
Thanks for the presentation Daniel. Good thought ehre.
Judith Fleenor (Trust Over IP)
01:16:47
There are two hand up…
Kalin Nicolov
01:16:56
THANK YOU Daniel!
Limari Navarrete
01:16:56
Thanks Daniel
Daniel Bachenheimer
01:17:07
thanks Daniel... very helpful!
Jacques Bikoundou
01:17:08
Thanks Dan!
Markus Sabadello
01:17:09
Yes thanks Daniel, this is great inspiration.
Henk van Cann
01:17:10
Thanks, Daniel
Pavel Minenkov
01:17:14
Thanks!
Wenjing Chu
01:17:14
Great GUT checking đź‘Ť
Wenjing Chu
01:17:42
Thanks Daniel!
danielsaeuberli
01:19:17
Thanks Daniel. Good inspiration. Let's divide and conquer with GUT guidance and let's add Darwin’s view on evolution to the equation: It's not the strongest but the most adaptable to change that will survive. :-)
Sandy Aggarwal
01:19:42
Daniel - can you please share this slide deck? Thx
Brian
01:19:55
@sandy https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ksqVxeCAvqLjr67htWZ4JYaSnI8TUZIO7tDMF5npHTo/edit#slide=id.g1c1ea9f3ac3_0_144
Sandy Aggarwal
01:20:19
Thanks Brian.
Lucy Yang
01:21:35
Thanks for the response, Daniel. The question is how these items are really going to solve today’s problem for most of the companies as the standards KERI, ACDC and DIDcomm has very small market share and traction. Doesn’t mean they are not important items to tackle in the long run.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam)
01:23:09
Lucy, beware of the areas of the market you may not be in contact with. There is more traction than you may imagine.
Lance Byrd
01:24:35
đź‘ŹDaniel thank you for taking the time to propose how to collect these incredible efforts into a united effort. We can all benefit from a Trust Spanning Layer. Lets make it happen together (Aires, ToIP, DIF, DIDComm users, KERI, and others)!
Kaliya Identity Woman
01:24:39
Well the inverse might also be true Sam.
Lucy Yang
01:25:22
Glad to know that @Sam. I am posing that as a question rather than I know the entire market. It would be helpful to shed some light on that part of the market so that we can help companies decide if this would be important to them.
Kalin Nicolov
01:26:39
+1 Sam
Fábio Pinheiro
01:26:57
Thanks
Neil Thomson
01:26:58
You're a brave man Daniel....
Andor Kesselman
01:27:07
Thanks @Daniel!
Lucy Yang
01:27:34
Thanks, Daniel!