Zoom Logo

ISRAELI PALESTINIAN PEACE SIMULATION - Shared screen with speaker view
Dave
23:47
The danger of confederation is that it normalises, nay institutionalises, existing apartheid. It is yet another version of the discredited 2-state solution which has bought Israel time to continue the violent theft of Palestinian land & lives.A single, SECULAR state is the sole sustainable solution. Equal rights for all between the river (Jordan) and the (Mediterranean) sea.‘Convivencia Initiative’ launched in May by the Convivencia Alliance which is composed of Jewish, Muslim and Christian activists promoting a just peace in Israel/Palestine. Read about it here; https://jewishnetworkforpalestine.uk/styled-2/
Carl Goldberg
26:24
Your constitution calls for a secular state, but both Hamas and Fatah want an Islamic state based on sharia law. How do you plan to convince them to accept a secular government?
Carl Goldberg
28:14
Richard Barrett is obviously an anti-Semite because he is telling deliberate lies about the only Jewish state in the world. Israel is NOT an apartheid state.
Jesse Bevan
28:31
these criticisms of the IPC idea are frankly misinformed. before dismissing out of hand, maybe read the constitution and participate in the simulation
Jesse Bevan
28:46
this is simply a mechanism for diplomacy. a tool to talk
Dave
28:52
Anti-Zionism is NOT antisemitism!
Natalie Awad
29:32
I don’t think insulting him is wise.. He is against the injustice ….like many
Dave
29:34
Many Jewish individuals and Jewish organisations oppose violent racist Israeli Zionism.
Carl Goldberg
30:29
According to the most widely accepted definition of antisemitism, the one put forth by the IHRA and accepted by more than thirty countries and hundreds of NGOs, antizionism IS antisemitism.
Natalie Awad
30:34
This is a time to clarify any issues
Jesse Bevan
30:54
this is about fostering dialogue
Dave
30:57
IHRA is a fraudulent definition
Natalie Awad
31:06
Human rights for all. Call it what you want….
Jesse Bevan
31:18
calling the other side names does nothing to bring about diplomacy and peace
Carl Goldberg
31:49
Fraudulent definition??? What is that? And who determines it?
Dave
34:19
I vote for One Democratic State!
Jesse Bevan
35:09
maybe the IPC can bring about one Democratic state but you live in the sky. we need to start with the common government to bring about a discussion
Carl Goldberg
36:41
What powers will this "common government" have to enforce its laws? If it has no power to enforce its laws, it is not a government. It is only an NGO making suggestions.
Natalie Awad
37:02
Do you think our guest Richard is going off central time ?
Natalie Awad
37:14
Did you confirm?
Jesse Bevan
38:23
Carl, please educate yourself on IPC idea before spreading falsehoods about it
Florence Mattar
39:58
iTS VERY BASIC, THE PALESTINIANS NEED TO HAVE CIVIL RIGHTS AND POLITICAL RIGHTS IN ORDER TO HAVE JUSTICE AND PEACE. AT THIS TIME THERE ARE NO CIVIL RIGHTS AND NO POLITICAL RIGHTS THIS IS THE WHOLE PROBLEM.
Carl Goldberg
40:30
That is false. I did not spread any falsehood about IPC. I merely asked questions based on what Josef is saying. Josef Is speaking about a "common government" but that "common government" will have no enforcement power. Therefore, it is not a government.
Jesse Bevan
40:45
why wasn't the guest speaker confirmed? I am confused? has anyone sent him a reminder?
Host Dan
41:33
Attempts were made to contact the guest speaker unfortunately there was no response from him
Jesse Bevan
42:30
Carl, you are spreading falsehoods because you are making assumptions not based on the reality of the idea. their is a website, a YouTube channel and even a book that breaks down the whole idea and mechanism. your questions have already been answered. if you aren't sure, just keep quiet or ask questions in good faith. maybe start by going to the website and reading about it
Carl Goldberg
42:51
Florence, which Palestinians are you talking about? The Palestinians who are citizens of Isrtael enjoy all of the political ana civil rights of other Israelis. The Palestinians in Gaza and the PA make their own laws. If THEY don't have civil rights, it is because their governments donot give them those rights.
Jesse Bevan
43:57
is there no way to get a hold of the Irish guest?
Jesse Bevan
44:20
in the past IPC was able to contact the speaker
Carl Goldberg
44:23
Jesse, you are lying about me, and now you want to prohibit me from speaking and raising relevant questions.
Jesse Bevan
45:30
I am not lying about you. your questions appear to be in bad faith and your basic understanding of this idea is rooted in nothing. unless you have read important information on website?
Jesse Bevan
46:30
I am bummed. so the Irish parliment member bailed?
Jesse Bevan
48:17
Carl is jumping ahead of the game. totally clueless. maybe wait til the end Carl. hope these questions are being asked in good faith
Natalie Awad
48:39
I am half Palestinian. Family in Ramallah….The occupation in itself is the issue here…
Haim Bresheeth-Zabner
49:35
And how will the occupation be finished by this procedure, Natalie?
Jesse Bevan
50:24
the IPC is another tool to help bring about the end to the conflict via occupation. status quo has FAILED to do that
Natalie Awad
51:11
That was my first question initially many years ago when I first met Joesph.. I am optimistic and also realistic
Natalie Awad
51:39
But I appreciate the effort
Dave
52:46
The problem is that in 1948 Israel was founded on violent racist theft. Anyone who has been flying a Ukrainian flag these past few months should have been flying a Palestinian flag over the past seven decades!
Natalie Awad
55:25
The sad truth.
Carl Goldberg
56:37
So far, what you have presented is not a constitution. It is merely a statement of belief.
Jesse Bevan
57:29
Carl, please get out of your comfort zone and do your own research. maybe check out the website for more details
AnnaK
58:00
How are we to guarantee the unbiased election of the judiciary? You must describe/justify the processes that will enable for those powers to be elected
Carl Goldberg
58:25
Jesse, maybe you should just hold your tongue and stop telling me what to do.
Haim Bresheeth-Zabner
58:25
Of course Carl is totally accurate, Jesse! Why are you trying to silence him?
Jesse Bevan
58:46
josef actually wrote a book that breaks down the complete constitution. book still available on Amazon if you don't want to read the text for free on website
Jesse Bevan
59:21
Carl can say whatever he wants but he seems misinformed and the bias is showing
AnnaK
59:38
Yes.
AnnaK
59:56
How are those representatives be elected?
Jesse Bevan
01:00:23
online election like is done in Estonia and elsewhere
Haim Bresheeth-Zabner
01:00:55
A constitution which is accepting the state of Israel as it is - a militarised, racist Apartheid state isa very interesting constitution… Jesse, do your own reading, please.
AnnaK
01:01:14
That is extremely impractical and biased @Jesse Bevan. Not all Palestinians have access to IT appliances or wi-fi.
Jesse Bevan
01:01:44
how many current countries were founded by settler colonial state or oppression or other injustice? the reality on the ground is they all exist
Dave
01:01:50
Not all Palestinians have access to secure electricity!!!
Natalie Awad
01:02:12
To those who speak not in favor of this IPC.. What are your solutions…..please enlighten us
AnnaK
01:02:20
Is this the mentality that you are trying to impose a Constitution? It is the least satirical.
Dave
01:02:56
@ Natalie; ‘Convivencia Initiative’ launched in May by the Convivencia Alliance which is composed of Jewish, Muslim and Christian activists promoting a just peace in Israel/Palestine. Read about it here; https://jewishnetworkforpalestine.uk/styled-2/
AnnaK
01:02:59
@Carl Goldberg very logically put and said.
Haim Bresheeth-Zabner
01:03:16
I for one am not surprised that you, Jesse, accept Israel as it is, while I, an Israeli citizen, reject it as an Apartheid state…
AnnaK
01:03:48
Where is the accessibility frameworks to safeguard equal participation to the democratic functions for the Palestinians?
AnnaK
01:04:18
You cannot mover forward without putting an acceptable framework in place.
Jesse Bevan
01:04:44
thank you Charles!
Haim Bresheeth-Zabner
01:05:35
Veto power to a racist state? You must be joking…
Natalie Awad
01:06:00
My family and roots are from Palestine. we have been there longer than the state of Israel… We lived in peace. I am not allowed to visit without being harassed and mocked.. and I am a US citizen born in Chicago… Its a very awful feeling
Natalie Awad
01:06:36
Battery low. Will need to charge Mac…be back
Carl Goldberg
01:07:38
This Declaration of Peace flagrantly contradicts Hamas, and even Fatah.
AnnaK
01:09:08
To start thinking of a Confederation, we must first address the extreme issues of intolerance, taught in schools and amongst communities, that entangle the two ethnic/heritage communities into ongoing disputes and unbalanced actions.
Naseer
01:12:34
I am raising my hand
Naseer
01:16:26
Someone has an echo and needs to be muted
Natalie Awad
01:17:17
The obstacle is getting the power and control we need to implement our legislative..
Carl Goldberg
01:19:33
Natalie, that is precisely my point. This Confederation will have no enforcement power. It cannot have its own police force because the governments of Israel, PA and Hamas will never permit it.
Natalie Awad
01:20:22
Yes Carl.. This was my initial response many years ago when the IPC was introduced
Jesse Bevan
01:21:29
if IPC is created and 19 out of 20 ideas get vetoed, it's still progress because one new idea for peace passed
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:21:31
The current contradictions with our principles are subject to the Judicial process and implemented by the Confederation Police.
Jesse Bevan
01:21:49
current status quo is 100% failure
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:22:22
Answer to the quesiton ;
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:22:24
The current contradictions with our principles are subject to the Judicial process and implemented by the Confederation Police.
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:23:22
Can be backed by a UN Peacekeeping force.
AnnaK
01:23:44
I believe that, idealistically, and after the severe and extreme inequalities seize to exist, then this Confederation draft has a good, progressive and equality-addressing context.
Natalie Awad
01:23:51
I am a registered nurse I own a successful nursing agency. Many of my clients are Jewish. My godfather was jewish They love me as I do to them, If only we can respect and show love in the region.. Equal rights…..
Jesse Bevan
01:23:54
Carl I genuinely hope you long for a peace process to be re started but to simply claim Hamas and Israel will never allow it. that's dismissive and if everyone had that train of thought, human progress would never exist
AnnaK
01:24:47
That is true @Jesse Bevan
Jesse Bevan
01:25:11
the pessimism and defeatism is understandable but does nothing to make a plan towards peace
Natalie Awad
01:25:22
At least the IPC will open a dialogue of peace and understanding…
Jesse Bevan
01:25:42
yes thank you Natalie! so much negatively
Natalie Awad
01:28:37
Yes Jesse. As long as we remember human rights for ALL. Equal rights.. The foundation for PEACE
AnnaK
01:28:49
I believe "negativity" has its roots in the extremity and unfairness that has been exhibited the last few years, however, it could easily turn into "consideration" and "optimism" with the right diplomatic steps and support.
Jesse Bevan
01:29:12
I agree
Dave
01:29:27
To assume Israeli govt & Palestinian Authority are equal partners is a pretence!
AnnaK
01:30:11
Thank you, @Jesse Bevan.
Jesse Bevan
01:31:35
he means well but this IPC idea is viable. his is not
Dave
01:32:43
I think Nasser's point is that IPC cannot protect Israeli racist violence!
AnnaK
01:33:00
@Naseer, we have to think and discuss ways of "dismantling" the current regime, which you are not a follower of, just like the rest of us, in here.
Natalie Awad
01:34:27
Stop US funding
Dave
01:34:32
IPC is an unrealistic game...
Natalie Awad
01:35:05
Thank you
AnnaK
01:35:26
My input to @Josef Avesar question is that with external diplomatic pressure e.g. Amnesty Int'l or United Nations, etc., but cooperating with unbiased bodies and organisations of the Palestine-Israel territory.
Naseer
01:35:43
It is not about dismantling Govts, but about upholding them to international agreements and international law and hold war criminals accountable in the ICJ
AnnaK
01:37:13
Agree @Naseer. Then, we can believe in the birth of a Confederation, where people will live under one diverse, and tolerant, mutually acceptable socio-political agenda.
Dave
01:38:49
Convivencia=Living Together. ‘Convivencia Initiative’ launched in May by the Convivencia Alliance which is composed of Jewish, Muslim and Christian activists promoting a just peace in Israel/Palestine. Read about it here; https://jewishnetworkforpalestine.uk/styled-2/
Jesse Bevan
01:39:01
why can't he do this BDS plan AND support the IPC idea?
AnnaK
01:39:08
It happened in the U.K., U.S.A., S. Africa, and elsewhere, after years of colonisation, in the papers first, but societally later.
AnnaK
01:39:33
@Josef Avesar, please allow dialogue here.
Jesse Bevan
01:39:57
why can't we do both?
Dave
01:40:17
BDS will work!!!
Jesse Bevan
01:40:38
BDS and resistance is happening right NOW and will continue to happen regardless of a new mechanism for peaceful dialogue
Ori Bennett
01:40:42
BDS is a cult. All cults fail
Jesse Bevan
01:41:07
ipc is far more viable than dismantling the Jewish state forcibly
AnnaK
01:41:52
We are working towards changing the policies and laws that allow the current Israeli government to govern through injustice and unfairness.
Dave
01:42:04
BDS is a peaceful way of pressuring Israel to stop stealing Palestinian land & lives. In fact, Israel has also stolen Jewish identity!!!
AnnaK
01:42:09
It is possible to change the laws.
Ori Bennett
01:42:49
Most governments around the world are very unfair. Idealism will get you nowhere. Quit trying to create another Canada in the Middle East
Jesse Bevan
01:43:01
Israel is more powerful than ever! we need the IPC now, not pie in sky ideas that all that will happen is more status quo
AnnaK
01:43:19
I agree @Josef Avesar, that you are saying the logical thing, short-term.
Naseer
01:43:20
The strength of Palestinians are their international rights and to surrender these rights for any kind of confederation that does not give them equal rights is worse than continued apartheid
Jesse Bevan
01:43:36
Israel is not the only colonial settlers state. the idealism argument is only continuing more death and destruction
Dave
01:43:40
Agreed Naseer!!!
AnnaK
01:44:55
@Naseer, the Confederation guidelines refer to all the things that need to change, and offer rules to adopt and make the big changes that need to be materialised.
AnnaK
01:45:43
From all texts that I have read and understood, so far, and after clarifications provided by the moderator of this meeting.
Natalie Awad
01:47:07
The people In Palestine who have suffered and lived in the occupation see the IPC as a “NO POWER “ entity against the IDF. They just want to live life and not get killed.. They are surviving…
Natalie Awad
01:50:58
Is for the dialogue….
AnnaK
01:51:00
@Natalie Awad, and that is the very essence of the flagrant infringement of the Palestinian people's Human Rights. And this is an issue being dealt with, right now, outside of the scope of this meeting, although it is priority Nr. One.
Natalie Awad
01:52:19
Thank you Naseer.. This is the foundation of peace “equality”
AnnaK
01:52:35
@Josef Avesar, I have a very vital and to-the-point question, that I would like to ask you. I shall wait for my turn, of course.
Natalie Awad
01:52:46
Don’t listen to this crazy stuff Ori
AnnaK
01:54:31
Can we please keep a mutually respectable environment, in this simulation, and not speak without "raising a hand!?
AnnaK
01:54:42
Thank you to all!!
Elly Levy
01:55:15
nothing in the IPC is preclusive of any other modality of engagement or pressure from without.
AnnaK
01:56:19
@Haim Brewsheeth-Zabner and @Ori Bennet, please, use the participation request tools, and do not monopolise this meeting, on the detriment of the other participants.
Dave
01:56:31
To assume Israeli govt & Palestinian Authority are equal partners is a pretence!
Naseer
01:56:38
It is not about dismantling. It is about getting the existing rulers to accept international right and equality and security.
Dave
01:57:49
Thanks Naseer
Natalie Awad
01:58:44
THE IPC should use the energy to Stop US funding.. as we do with the states with grants etc….
Natalie Awad
01:59:10
In order to demand for equality
Natalie Awad
02:01:17
Goodbye everyone…..Until next time. What happened to Richard Boyd?
Dave
02:03:24
Israel v Palestine is not a conflict is violent racist oppression and the world must make a stand to oppose rather than provide diplomatic, financial & military support
AnnaK
02:04:22
@Libby Traubman your example is very enlightening and hopeful, also acknowledging the amount of time it took for the black S. Africans to recollect their rights and suppress the apartheid.
AnnaK
02:04:54
Education is the key, for both children and adults.
Naseer
02:05:28
Step 1- Stop killing and militarism. Step 2- understand each other as humans
Naseer
02:05:43
And I apply this all sides
Ronny Yaron
02:06:51
In Israel there have been hundreds of groups and communities that have bridged the gap between Paleatinians and Israeli Jews for 70 years and more
AnnaK
02:07:19
Yes, @Naseer, these are the first steps, in order to move forward to the more futuristic, idealistic situations that we are discussing right now.
Libby Traubman
02:08:24
yes, but a small number compared to the need. If many work for the good of the entire region, many would benefit and this is built on trust and relationships
Naseer
02:10:02
@Libby- without the cessation of the military and apartheid, any peace efforts will collapse because of the killing and denial of rights, and etc
Elly Levy
02:12:39
teenqagers did not create apartheid
Zohar Ianovici
02:14:03
Israel's policy is determined by +60 years old persons
Carl Goldberg
02:15:18
If we are talking about the Palestinians in Gaza and Area A, they make their own laws, establish their own cultural and judicial and media institutions. They have autonomous self-government.
Naseer
02:16:37
@Carl- They do not control their borders, air space, natural resourses and movement within and without the country. Foreigners are not even allowed to enter unless they enter Israel first. So It is not really a govement like other countries.
Naseer
02:17:04
Plus, they can not give citizenship to anyone they want, like Palestinians in Lebanon
Dave
02:17:48
Israel asserts its power in any part of the land between the river & the sea wherever & whenever it wants and the PA is POWERLESS!
Elly Levy
02:19:04
try to get a building permit in those areas or avail yourself of meaningful representation in a administrative detention vis a vis Israeli military, see how exercisable your "rights" are
Carl Goldberg
02:19:46
@Naseer You are right that they are not fully sovereign governments like other countries. That is because their stated goal for the past 73 years, has been to eradicate Israel and establish an Ara/Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. This has always been their professed goal, and their populations agree with this goal.
Naseer
02:20:26
@Carl- this is not true
Carl Goldberg
02:21:07
@Dave It is simply false to say that the PA is powerless. They determine the entire cultural and political life of the area they control.
Carl Goldberg
02:23:54
2Naseer -- Yes it is. Show me any official Palestine maps which show Israel in any borders.
Naseer
02:24:57
Show me an official map of Israel
Elly Levy
02:25:03
try to get a building permit in those areas or avail yourself of meaningful representation in a administrative detention vis a vis Israeli military, see how exercisable your "rights" are
Libby Traubman
02:25:41
Thanks for lots of interesting ideas. Must go as I am participating in a World Beyond War conference this weekend. Too bad we weren't all there!!
Zohar Ianovici
02:26:05
good luck Libby!
Lawrence Wilkerson
02:27:16
To my mind, the IPC will embarrass the three governments, increasingly so as it passes the sort of legislation with which we’ve been dealing. That embarassment will be seen daily by the people, particularly those who voted for the IPC. Over time, these “examples” will eat away at the three governments and they will be compelled to change or fail completely. That's the beauty of the iPC concept. Got to run. Enjoyed the discussion.
Elly Levy
02:27:49
again, nothing of the IPC is preclusive of other modailities of engagement. It should be coupled with pressure from without (the region), like BDS.
Carl Goldberg
02:27:53
Estonia is an irrelevant example. Estonia has an overwhelming homogeneous population sharing a common language and a common history.
Haim Bresheeth-Zabner
02:28:03
To all of you who doubt what a number of us argue for, pls have a look at the website of Jewish Network for Plastine: https://jewishnetworkforpalestine.uk
Zohar Ianovici
02:28:21
Thanks Haim!