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ACGR National Meeting November 2021 - Shared screen with speaker view
Andrew Lonie, University of Otago
43:55
Kia ora, from Aotearoa New Zealand
fiona.quintner@cdu.edu.au
44:41
All the way up to Darwin too!
Rose Lucas
44:41
Greetings from unceded Wurundjeri country
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
44:45
Hi all, from Ngunnawal country
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
45:24
Good morning from Darumbal land (Rockhampton). Lest we forget.
Dan Bendrups (La Trobe)
45:29
Greetings from Jaara country, unceded.
Kate Howell (UNDA)
46:44
Hello everyone - from unceded Whadjuk boodja
Fiona Quintner CDU
47:32
is anyone else having sound issues?
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
47:46
My sound is OK
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
47:47
Audio is okay at my end @Fiona Q
Jacinta Schreuder
47:49
All good for me
Shalini Lata (UNDA)
48:06
Audio is fine for me
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
48:14
All fine for me :)
Charlotte Hart - University of Melbourne
48:30
Fiona, maybe try logging out and back in, sometimes that helps
Fiona Zammit ACGR
55:36
Please do note any questions for Peter and Elanor here
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
01:12:56
Hi Fiona - a question: what are some guiding principles that universities might use to direct our international HDR partnership activities, given all the global uncertainty/unpredictability?
Philip Thomas
01:14:49
Was there an assumption that problem finders and problem solvers are different individuals and if so, should we accept that?
Rose Lucas VU
01:23:50
Thanks Elanor. As well as problem finders and solvers, I'm interested also in the role of 'problem reflectors' - ie theoretical and analytical research that may not at least directly result in the construction of the thing/tool etc but but which brings important contextual thinking. An important triumvirate of finding, solving and reflecting in terms of innovative thinking!
Denise Cuthbert
01:26:19
Loving your social theory Elanor! Keep it up!
Elanor Huntington
01:28:42
Thanks Denise!
Philip Thomas
01:28:48
Thanks Elanor - hard to disagree that identification of the problem is critical
Denise Cuthbert
01:29:56
I am part way through a bold HDR curriculum redevelopment project and persuading STEMM folk to give up space in their taught components for social and critical theory is a big challenge.
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
01:30:32
That sounds like a great project Denise
Imelda Whelehan UWA
01:31:06
Nice to see you Elanor - good luck with new role!
Philip Thomas
01:31:25
Understand your challenge Denise - would be good to discuss at another time
Denise Cuthbert
01:31:28
Great session, Peter and Elanor!
Fiona Zammit ACGR
01:32:33
Thank you Peter and Elanor
Philip Thomas
01:32:59
Thanks Peter and Elanor
Fiona Zammit ACGR
01:37:18
Any questions or comments for Barbara?
Sharon Saunders (Griffith)
01:43:27
I know that there is a big focus on improving research culture in Europe including action planning at an institutional level . Can you talk about some specific initiatives for HDRs which have been successful?
Simon Moss CDU
01:43:28
Although DORA is so encouraging, how has Europe managed the possible complications of this decreased reliance on research metrics—such as the expense of demonstrating and evaluating quality as well as the possible effects of subjective biases on evaluations.
Justin Zobel (unimelb)
01:49:25
We (unimelb) signed DORA in 2019 and are working through implementation. Meaningful performance evaluation is key, but the benefits to culture seem clear - it has been widely welcomed.
Rachel Spronken-Smith (Otago)
01:49:29
Most NZ unis already have a hybrid viva format (due to our isolation and costs), with having either examiners online or students who have returned; what COVID has raised is a higher level of duty of care, given all our experiences with zoom fatigue, and the anxiety associated with the pandemic.
Neil Dodgson (Wellington, NZ)
01:51:17
Taking vivas online has worked very well for us. All the local people (student, supervisors, internal examiner) gather in a meeting room with the external examiner on video-conference. This provides appropriate support for the student and a good experience as they have that three way conversation with the two examiners.
Rachel Spronken-Smith (Otago)
01:51:52
At Otago we (Graduate Research School) have an annual Postgraduate Research Culture Award to help encourage departments to think about their culture. There are two awards - for small and large departments.
Sharon Saunders (Griffith)
01:51:53
Thanks Barbara.
Sandy Orgeig (UniSA)
01:52:09
At UniSA we also have a hybrid oral defence - student, chair & supervisors f2f with examiners online
Fiona Zammit ACGR
01:53:03
‘How do we ensure that our universities, government and industry/end-users recognise the value and invest in doctoral education post-COVID.’
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
02:07:31
Group 5 - we ran out of time for a spokesperson - is anyone keen? I have some notes and I'll put those in the chat
Pauline Opie (RM)
02:07:37
Tan is from group 8
Rachel Spronken-Smith (Otago)
02:07:56
Go for it Susan!
Corinne Cortese
02:08:03
Thanks, Susan
Catherine Murphy (MQ)
02:08:07
Yes Susan please you would be wonderful :)
Fiona Zammit ACGR
02:08:26
Could you please let us know if you are able to speak on behalf of your group?
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
02:09:10
Hi Fiona, I'm speaking on behalf of Group 7
Louise Sharpe (she/her)
02:09:26
I'm speaking for group 4
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
02:09:51
Group 5 comments: communicating the value is important (digestible; simple packaging). Train our graduates to be good voices/ambassadors. Get industry people to come to our events can be hard. COVID has changed people's perceptions of research (not necessarily for the better). More nuanced understanding of different kinds of research - all are valuable. Bridge the divide - how do we do this? Role of internships (STEM and HASS). Find relatable people to act as role models for the current generation (e.g. Dr Karl). Review the fitness of purpose of PhDs - what are we training them for?
Fiona Zammit ACGR
02:10:53
Anyone from groups 1,3 and 6?
Sandy Orgeig (UniSA)
02:12:11
I'm happy to speak on behalf of group 3
Fiona Zammit ACGR
02:12:55
– a small breakout group will run during the break to discuss how tuition fee waivers/scholarships appear on budgets, i.e. are they a cost, an opportunity cost or something that we acknowledge but not record on balance sheets. Georgina Kelly will facilitate this discussion - please let us know via this chat if you would like to join this quick breakout group
Dan Bendrups (La Trobe)
02:13:12
Folks, I’ve taken notes for our group if you are happy for me to speak (don’t know what number we were)
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
02:13:21
Yes please Fiona, I'd like to join
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
02:13:29
I'd like to join too FZ
Honglin Chen (UOW)
02:13:36
I think we are group 1.
Simon Handley MQ
02:13:36
I’m happy to join
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
02:13:41
I’d like to join that, Fiona
Jeremiah Peiffer - Murdoch University
02:13:43
From our group, there was a focus on the importance of reminding Gov/Industry/public that 'common sense' is only common sense because of the research from Universities and more importantly from HDR candidates. We need to do better to showcase this to remind people of effort and work that goes into building common sense :)Each GRS needs a PR rep.
Lauretta Grasso, JCU
02:14:12
I'd like to join, but I also need to have the break.....will we get a summary of that fee waiver conversation?
Honglin Chen (UOW)
02:14:18
Thanks Jeremiah.
Peter Terry (USQ)
02:14:22
I'd like to join the breakout group during the break.
Louise Sharpe (she/her)
02:14:30
Fiona, I would love to join that breakout group
Christine Bruce JCU
02:15:29
Be good to join fiona - like Lauretta will there be a summary to help consideration?- keeping up the concentration is a challenge
helen's iPhone
02:16:07
Dan- we were group 6 - thanks!
Sandy Orgeig (UniSA)
02:16:32
Fiona, I'd be interested, but need to make something to eat in front of the computer :-)
Joanne Tipper UTS
02:17:21
Maybe put the notes in the chat dan for group 6?
Michelle Lopez (Monash)
02:17:25
Yes I would also like to join please
Sharon Saunders (Griffith)
02:17:31
Yes please
Chris Abbiss (ECU)
02:17:33
yes please
Fiona Zammit ACGR
02:59:32
The final drafts of these Good Practice Guidelines can be viewed here https://www.acgr.edu.au/draft-good-pract…raduate-research/
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
03:04:21
Swinburne has a very small number of fee paying HDR students <50 from 1500 students
Imelda Whelehan UWA
03:09:50
if you have questions for us, please feel free to start adding to chat
Dan Bendrups (La Trobe)
03:15:58
Question re. spouses as co/supervisors: given how tricky this is, what rationale(s) exist in favor of allowing spouses to co-supervise a candidate together in the first place?
Wendy Wright - Federation University
03:17:47
What sort of "other roles", Michelle?
Louise Sharpe (she/her)
03:18:04
It is part of our supervision policy at USYD that spouses cannot both be nominated supervisors for a student as well.
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
03:18:22
Thanks, Michelle. I like the idea of this being an HR policy.
Alastair McEwan (UQ)
03:19:33
The answer to Dan’s question is trust and the ‘honour’ principle - but this is no longer a convincing or accepted way of managing processes
Chris Abbiss (ECU)
03:23:04
I'm interested if (and where) others keep record such CoIs? We have a centralised CoI registration for all staff (within University Governance not GRS). However, staff don't consider some of the issues raised here when completing this declaration.
Rose Lucas
03:27:18
Yes those Respectful Relationships videos are very useful at the candidate level.
Corinne Cortese
03:27:19
that would be great, thanks
Wendy Wright - Federation University
03:27:44
I've already found the draft guidelines useful in opening up discussions - thank you!
Christine Bruce JCU
03:27:50
I think it’s useful even for experienced deans to know if there are people willing to be approached on tricky ones!
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
03:28:15
Thanks all!
Fiona Zammit ACGR
03:30:08
Claire’s audit can be viewed here https://www.acgr.edu.au/key-initiatives/wellbeing-and-mental-health/mental-health-and-wellbeing-materials-programs-and-services/
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
03:35:46
One of the things we've been able to negotiate this year is for ISOS, our offshore health/risk provider, is provider mental health support (including counselling) for our offshore candidates.
Fiona Zammit ACGR
03:36:40
Great to know for any other university that uses the same provider
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
03:36:48
That's fantastic Sarah. It's always a concern when for offshore candidates
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
03:37:21
We've also started monthly catch ups for that cohort that are well attended and seem to be really great in keeping people engaged, connected and supported
Sandy Orgeig (UniSA)
03:38:51
Oh wow congratulations to Claire. Sorry about the yucky weather in Adelaide :-)
Sharon Saunders (Griffith)
03:38:53
Griffith also offers the Offshore Student Support Program to our HDR candidates.
Amanda Davis
03:39:30
We have also been able to successfully negotiate a program with Workplace Options
Liz Boase
03:41:08
Currently negotiating HDR candidates into oour EAP
Ann Evans, ANU
03:41:53
We are looking to open up EAP to all candidates. Not there yet.
Fiona Quintner CDU she/her
03:42:33
What is the reason behind wanting HDRs to have access to student counselling as well as staff counselling?
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
03:43:25
Several of our Grad School admin staff have been trained in Mental Health First Aid, as they can be 'front line' in hearing from distressed candidates.
Alastair McEwan (UQ)
03:44:45
I imagine that it is because student services provision for HDRs is inadequate but by providing access to EAP we are tacitly accepting a view that HDRs are staff and that could be very damaging indeed
Ann Evans, ANU
03:44:57
The EAP gives access to a range of providers with different specialities. Student counselling is a set service that is very overwhelmed at particular times of the year. Never resourced well enough to cope with demand.
Liz Boase University of Divinity
03:46:46
We set up some online Shut up and Write sessinons which has built a network of peer support
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
03:49:22
Our HDR candidates have been very active, set up a buddy program, a seminar series on careers and are growing their online community through Yammer, Discord and Facebook.
Fiona Zammit ACGR
03:57:16
Would be. Interested to know how many Grad Schools/offices have access to SSAF $ to support HDR wellbeing activities
Sharon Saunders (Griffith)
03:58:13
Will be lobbying hard Fiona!
Jeremiah Peiffer - Murdoch University
03:58:45
At Murdoch, it is an easy argument for the GRS to access SSAF funding. At the moment, we use SSAF for several things we do, but not yet in the wellbeing space.
Charlotte Ferrier
03:58:59
Our experience has been that SSAF use won't be approved for anything that's exclusively for HDRs. Interested to hear about this use!
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
03:59:08
I don't know what SSAF is so don't think I can access it. I am working very closely with the student experience team though and they are tailoring activities, workshops and academic support for HDRs
Fiona Zammit ACGR
03:59:22
Student Services and Amenities Fee
Errol Phuah
03:59:29
^Georgie i'll give u a lowdown sometime!
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
03:59:40
We don't get to use the SSAF for HDR only activities.
Errol Phuah
03:59:56
i'll talk about SSAF related stuff in a bit..
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
04:00:05
@CQU I have applied for SSAF for the past 5 years, but it was to support HDR careers training... was successful for the first 3, ended up paying half each last year, and this year have funded it ourselves after the application was declined. it's a difficult 'sell' because our HDRs tend to not fill in the SSAF survey about what students want :(
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
04:00:12
Ah, then no, not directly. But the student services team are very happy to collaborate for HDR
Wendy Wright - Federation University
04:01:09
Great!
Jeremiah Peiffer - Murdoch University
04:01:21
https://www.talkcampus.io/
Georgie Kelly - Swinburne
04:01:35
Thank you
Tan Yigitcanlar (QUT)
04:01:58
QUT has an app: QUT Wellbeing
Charlotte Ferrier
04:03:17
This year we have started to work with batyr on campus to deliver peer-peer mental health and wellbeing workshops - led by current HDRs and delivered over Zoom to make it as accessible and low key as possible.
Catherine Murphy (MQ)
04:03:30
MQ has a Wellbeing App also - it has feeling check ins, videos, habits, journals
Daniela Kaleva
04:04:46
Hi, at Deakin we launched the Effective Researchers Series in 2020 that embeds coping strategies and information about available support across the university.
Rachel Spronken-Smith (Otago)
04:05:18
Otago has a Graduate Wellbeing Coach - she provides workshops such as the ones Helen talked about, as well as one-to-one consultancies (face to face or by zoom) to help with research productivity and wellbeing. A coach is a really great gentle way to get students into accessing support
Denise Cuthbert
05:15:44
Is it just me, or is there an election looming?
Errol Phuah
05:16:24
<_< >_> ;)
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
05:17:03
Hahahaha!
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
05:17:36
What is the timing for the clarification regardng changes to the RTP? This has been yet another bruising year for universities (particularly those of us in Vic and NSW) and it would be kind to offer these sooner rather than later.
Tan Yigitcanlar (QUT)
05:17:53
While HDR completions with APR Internships have higher weight, are the funding amount in the RTP pool is increasing to accomodate for the extra weighting?
Wendy Wright - Federation University
05:18:08
Very keen to know what makes up an "eligible" internship
Amanda Davis (UniMelb)
05:19:41
I would also like clarification on what an eligible internship is - virtual, onshore, offshore, embedded with industry...
Stephan Riek (USC)
05:22:11
What's the rationale to exclude Masters by Research students, for which in some industry sectors like engineering see them as more accessible.
Imelda Whelehan UWA
05:22:11
Is there a tension between placing value on meaningful industry/university engagement and desiring 'early collaboration' on the part of the HDR student? I'm struggling to understand why 'early' is better
Sandy Orgeig (UniSA)
05:22:13
And also providing value to the industry partner
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
05:23:07
The slides mentioned that an expected benefit of the Internship scheme was that industry challenges would shape the research doctorate. I'm unsure how this could be the case, given that the candidate and their project has already been assessed and admitted into the university, and appropriate supervision has been allocated. Significant changes to projects after admission can be damaging for the candidate and for timely completions. It would seem that industry input into project design would be better placed in the pre-admission phase; and the benefit of placements might instead be about the (very valuable) practice of applying well-developed research skills to industry. (And this would occur after confirmation, when those skills have been refined)
Fiona Quintner CDU she/her
05:23:12
could internships that are embedded in the students research project and projects that are outside the stduents project both be eligible?
Stephan Riek (USC)
05:23:14
Getting better cooperation between university research and end-users (industry) has two sides of the equation. What is the government doing to incentivise industry partners to engage with university research and research training?
Imelda Whelehan UWA
05:23:32
We need Elanor to explain the distinction between problem solvers and problem finders!
Alastair McEwan (UQ)
05:24:13
What Dan is describing requires a much more developed approach to knowledge exchange
Belinda Bern
05:25:33
Maybe we can hear more about how flexible the internship might be - undertaken over a period of time so can enable more experience first…?
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
05:25:54
Good comments, Errol!
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
05:26:02
thoroughly agree, Errol
Simon Moss CDU
05:26:12
I would be concerned that research projects that are inspired by an early internship will be quite limited in scope—and therefore, ultimately, not as useful to the nation
Kate Howell (UNDA)
05:26:27
Great comments, Errol
Liz Tynan
05:26:27
Fully support Errol's comments
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
05:26:41
@Simon, I think the majority of us would agree that it shouldn’t come too soon in the PhD candidature
Wendy Wright - Federation University
05:26:54
If the candidate could connect early with the industry partner but carry out their internship later, could that be a compromise?
Jeremiah Peiffer - Murdoch University
05:27:08
Errol's comments should be a statement posted on the door of every GRS. Well said!
Charlotte Ferrier (UniSA)
05:27:12
Would be interested to know what opportunity industry have had to comment on the timing of internships?
Liz Tynan
05:27:51
The "early" timeframe looks ideological rather than practical.
Sandra Savocchia
05:27:54
Managing industry expectations early on in the PhD could be quite problematic for students 9and supervisors)
Christine Bruce JCU
05:28:14
Internships are only one avenue for achieving the goal of achieving relevance and don’t capture the scope of possible engagements
Stephan Riek (USC)
05:28:24
What is the policy intent??!
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
05:28:38
Could you share the policy philosophy so that the ACGR members could help with identifying some flexible and creative ways to still meet the intent, but in a practicable way?
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
05:28:48
Agree! @Stephan, what is the policy intent? I think the feedback has been clear that the intent is muddled
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
05:29:05
Agreed — and good question, Susan
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
05:29:59
There might be an assumption that very few PhDs will complete an internship so early in their progress.
Louise Sharpe (she/her)
05:30:04
It is important to ensure that industry is well defined and broadly so, and includes industries where there is already an established relationship between the industry and the university.
Stephan Riek (USC)
05:30:09
if we all do it to the same relative extent it will make no difference in the allocation to each insitution
Fiona Quintner CDU she/her
05:30:53
Some universities and more ready than others so they may get a bigger slice relative to those who are not
Simon Moss CDU
05:31:05
I agree with Tan too—PhD candidates, administrators, and supervisors need to complete significantly more work but ultimately with the same financial return
helen's iPhone
05:32:23
Or in fact possibly less than you get now if you don’t do it
Christine Bruce JCU
05:32:47
What is really important is the wide range of our students already working on important “industry” and social problems engaged with business and community
Alastair McEwan (UQ)
05:33:16
Agree with Chris - we need flexibility - like the Knowledge Transfer Partnerships in UK
Fiona Quintner CDU she/her
05:33:35
Also institutions that are naturally more industry focussed/have research stengths that are industry-friendly may be at an advantage.
Liz Boase University of Divinity
05:34:03
Smaller Universities with more humanities non-stem focus are at risk
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
05:34:13
The old APA-I would work in this respect, I’d say
Philip Thomas
05:34:17
Thanks Chris
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
05:35:46
Yes - please let us help make the policy rollout a success. There is so much expertise available within our membership of what works in this space.
Imelda Whelehan UWA
05:35:56
thanks Dan
Fiona Zammit ACGR
05:37:42
Thanks everyone for your comments - with your permission I will edit and share the comments/questions that you made with DESE
Charlotte Ferrier (UniSA)
05:37:51
Thanks Errol - i think your views are really important!
Penny Martens (UNSW)
05:37:53
yes, well done Errol! The candidate voice is important
Doreen Krumbiegel UofAdelaide
05:39:51
Can someone transcribe Errol's comments and send to DESE? I think it's really important to share the students' view too
Alastair McEwan (UQ)
05:42:18
I don’t think that SSAF can be funded from tuition
Christine Bruce JCU
05:42:19
Love to learn more about the Swinburne model for peer to peer support , Errol is also mentioning it
Belinda Bern
05:44:09
Interesting point Errol but we use these to fund tailored HDR careers services. Not sure if same needs for coursework?
Fiona Zammit ACGR
05:46:28
Thank you Errol
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
05:46:39
Same here, Belinda. There's no question that coursework and HDR candidates both contribute to the pool of funds. The problem seems to be that the services that are funded by the SSAF heavily favour coursework students needs, rather than HDR-relevant options (e.g. sports teams and events; rather than HDR mental health and career advice). I've tried to make an argument that our HDR candidates represent xx% of the total student body, so we should get xx% of the funding... but no luck :(
Christine Bruce JCU
05:46:40
Thank you Errol !
Pauline Opie (RM)
05:50:29
Thanks for a great day, see you tomorrow
Liz Boase University of Divinity
05:51:02
I have another meeting. Apologies for ducking out
James Cutler
05:51:02
Thanks all see you tomorrow
Sarah Stow (RMIT)
06:01:01
Thank you everyone for today. It was a great meeting. I'll see you all tomorrow.
Peter Terry (USQ)
06:07:02
Shouldn't that be Imelda as President?
Denise Cuthbert
06:08:10
Congratulatons to all new members!
Imelda Whelehan UWA
06:08:19
congratulations!
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
06:08:26
Thanks and congrats Wendy, Clive and Justin
Wendy Wright - Federation University
06:09:05
Thanks all. Looking forward to being involved on the Exec.
Peter Terry (USQ)
06:09:42
Quite right Anne-Marie. Al has done a wonderful job!
Ann Evans, ANU
06:09:56
Thank you Al
Imelda Whelehan UWA
06:10:08
good work Al! we
Imelda Whelehan UWA
06:10:13
'll miss you
Denise Cuthbert
06:10:14
Well said Anne-Maree!
Simon Moss CDU
06:10:16
Well said Anne-Marie—it’s been great working with you Al
Susan Kinnear - CQUniversity
06:10:19
We appreciate all your work Al
Jen Webb (UniCanberra)
06:10:21
Thank you to all the current, outgoing and incoming exec for all you do, and particular thanks to Al for his unstinting brilliance
Esa Jaatinen -QUT
06:10:51
thansl all