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Fatherhood Matters Part 2 - Shared screen with speaker view
Ian Dinwiddy
24:56
I'm here until 11:35! got to collect my daughter
Ian Dinwiddy
26:21
I wanted to tick a couple of boxes
Brian Ballantyne
28:36
Great to hear from these top dads!
Rachel Vecht
30:00
66% dads
Brian Ballantyne
30:30
Happy to see so many dads here
James Fox-Robinson
30:58
Morning Brian!
Brian Ballantyne
31:08
Hi James!
Brian Ballantyne
31:44
Michael does amazing work, check him out on LinkedIn
Alison Phillips
31:57
Agreed.
Jane Myers
32:33
oh my gosh - what time is it in Australia? Wow - totally impressed!
Sophie Chenery
34:58
Dads do roles within the workplace that can simply not allow them to spend time with their children. My OH is a self employed Kitchen Fitter. He leaves early every day, and comes home later, it is just not possible for him to be relied on. Even though he'd like to.
Brian Ballantyne
35:52
Hopefully there are Mums who do kitchen fitting too. Self-employment is a complex area though, I agree.
Rachel Vecht
36:22
in the UK ours at back at school! Michael's is asleep!
Alison Phillips
37:12
Toxic Masculinity! I salute the modern day father. Breaking down barriers.
Brian Ballantyne
38:00
"Primary caregiver" also causes issues for gay parents
Daniel Waites
38:37
HSBC has excellent policies on shared parental leave and so on, but still my impression is many dads do not take significant parental leave. What can be done to encourage this? Perhaps it should be mandatory to take at least a couple of months?
Steven Alderson
39:13
My wife is much more practised in dealing with our little boy, so I always feel a bit of a dumbo when trying to do things.
James Fox-Robinson
39:19
“primary care giver” is an issue for my full time working wife as it sounds like she is less important. We’re still working on an alternative title for what I do now.
Sophie Chenery
40:15
Elliot- Agree with your point here!! There are male dominated industries like construction- where it is very challenging.
Brian Ballantyne
40:17
Shared parental leave seems really complicated, a woman in my team going on maternity leave is trying to do shared parental leave with her husband, but the admin and coordination is so complicated (on purpose?) it's another barrier for dads to take leave
James Millar
40:31
Use it or lose it is key when it comes to paternity leave to drive uptake. It also needs to be funded properly - though too many men use economics as an excuse when they could work round it. Policies are one thing, companies need to share role models and show that those policies are available to all and there’ll be no career downside to using them
Tom Funnell
40:50
Im going to become a dad for the second time and this time my wife is self employed so im aiming to use the excellent shared parental leave policy but im incredibly trepidatious about bringing this up with my line manager as this year feels like a 'big' year for my career. Does anyone have any experience of this?
James Millar
41:41
Tom - I would say this but check out the case studies on workingdads.co.uk. Lots of dads talk about the trepidation around asking for SPL. But none of them regret doing it.
Wayne Fillis
41:56
My daughter is 3 months old. I didn’t know I would be entitled to 2 months leave at OW, paid for (part of SPL). If it wasn’t for a colleague who told me I might have missed out on this opportunity of extra time to bond with my daughter
Alison Phillips
42:03
Tom. Do it. I think you would gain significant respect from your work colleagues. Make it NORMAL.
Brian Ballantyne
42:05
Proud to be present with your kids
James Kent
42:10
I would certainly like to see an extended period of paternity leave, as I feel 2 weeks does not allow sufficient time to establish life with a new addition. More time supports a greater bond with father and child whilst also allowing dad to help mum out more, as not all women (and moreso 1st timers) take to being a mother instantly and require that extra support
James Kent
43:01
As main earner (by far) in my household, shared parental leave was not an option without having savings or an additional income to support that reduction in income during an extended period
Wayne Fillis
43:15
The first 3 months are the hardest time for new parents - your partner doing it alone it tough, tough, tough
Peter Brand
43:39
UK is behind Luxembourg, Dads get months off, would be good to see UK improve
William Hackett
43:47
Wee said James Kent
Phill
44:03
2 weeks paternity leave not enough- my wife had two c-sections and needed support at home; shared paternity leave policy outdated and confusing.
William Hackett
44:09
*well
James Millar
44:22
Really important that dads taking paternity leave or Shared Parental Leave also get some time on their own with their kids. That solo practice is crucial to build confidence and ability
Steven Alderson
44:51
I think it would be good to allow a longer period of parental leave to be taken at different times during the child’s life. Sometimes it can be more fun spending time with children when they’re a bit older, and the bonding at that time can be more rewarding. Should be available for both parents!
Brian Ballantyne
44:52
Agreed James, I was trying to have time with my first born (14 years ago) and my in laws were always hovering over
Catherine Oliver
45:01
Sorry just realised my comments went to panellists only...
Alison Phillips
45:02
Paternity leave can be split between both parents. I would do this is I had the choice again. I would take the first half and my other half the 2nd.
Catherine Oliver
45:04
Some firms are now offering longer periods of paid paternity leave - which I think is a great step in the right direction, encouraging them that it’s ok to be off in those crucial early months when the bonds are formed and to Michael’s point, the experience is gained
Phill
45:15
HR incorrectly explained shared paternity leave! I also wasn’t in a financial position to take weeks and weeks off unpaid.
Brian Ballantyne
45:33
Yes Steven, I took 3 months leave ("sabbatical") when my kids were 8 and 10 and we went travelling together. Frankly it was a nightmare, although have some good memories :D
Wayne Fillis
45:44
It does depend on a few things as to whether you’re eligible for SPL
Ines Wade
45:51
Michael - so true! Our children are the reason we work. We want better futures for them, and better futures mean having present fathers!
James Millar
45:53
Michael is right. Obv. Often the only reason any industry can’t do flexible working is because they lack the imagination to make it happen.
Daniel Waites
45:57
In case people are not aware, Dads are entitled to 19 weeks on full pay, if they take shared parental leave. This is in addition to the paid leave your partner would also get.
Phill
46:06
Raised question if they’ll review policy but told “not an investment we’re able to make right now”- I find that short sighted.
James Kent
46:14
Sweden (i believe) are miles ahead with their parental leave policies
Catherine Oliver
46:14
SPL is complicated - more ring fenced leave for dads / partners is needed
Brian Ballantyne
46:50
Well said Michael
Peter Brand
46:51
Well said Michael - TIME TIME TIME
William Hackett
47:12
Great points Michael
Paul Richardson
47:28
I can resonate with this. I have also been upfront and spoken up when I'm doing anything related to my little one. It is now just accepted within my team and I have never felt any shame.
Alison Phillips
47:33
COVID has helped with flexi hours. Where there were barriers working from home there are no longer.
Ian Dinwiddy
47:34
I think there is combination of challenges - limited paternity leave isn't helpful but cultures that perceive dads as uninterested in parenting and "penalise" them if they are can have the best policies in the world but they are meaningless without the right culture, both top down and line management
Alex Bird
47:35
take pride in the priority is a great phrase!
James Millar
47:44
Construction as an industry is really interested in adopting flexible working, because the men that work in that sector want it. Han-Son might have stats on sectors and attitudes to flex. And see his recent excellent report on young fathers for more surprising facts on attitudes among men in all industries and of all ages to being more present
Catherine Oliver
48:08
Agreed - role models incredibly important
Karen Lothian
48:13
Organisations need to address their culture and behaviours towards working dads. Senior role models who work flexibility and include dad in the parenting discussion.
Catherine Oliver
48:44
In my experience, many senior men don’t realise how much of a difference their openness can make
Ian Dinwiddy
48:59
Totally agree Catherine
Karin Seymour
49:09
I am literally cheering - “it is not like fight club”. Such great points all the panellists are making. We all need to be each other’s allies
Brian Ballantyne
49:35
It's like parenting, it doesn't matter what you say, it is what you do that counts (re. role modelling)
Edgar Hoffmann
49:57
I am considering a second child, but with covid my self-employed partner has lost regular income. This means she isn't technically eligible for maternity leave so i'm under the impression I won't be able to take SPL. Is this right?
Jane Myers
49:58
a friend of mine - very senior in his investment bank used to leave before the kids got up (when they were younger) got back after they were asleep. The kids thought he only slept at home at the weekend. So sad and puts such a pressure on the mother
Meindert Van wensen
50:04
I do expect that at least one of your kids will interrupt you . . . . . . you become the role model yourself in showing the audience how to handle these situations.
Ines Wade
50:18
I wouldn't be where I am without my dad! My dad is high up in a company and he always made a point of leaving early for us. He said when you put up your stance that your family is important, other people respect that :-)
Ian Dinwiddy
50:32
Great Bill Gates example of Male leadership role models in here:https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/massive-hidden-cost-womens-unpaid-work-melinda-gates/
Peter Brand
51:29
Agree, middle management is often the problem due to pressures to deliver and be there 24/7
Wayne Fillis
51:36
I think for SPL your partner needs to be employed for a specific period prior to the child being born - but please don’t quote me - do reach to out HC to check, also you can check the rules online.
Brian Ballantyne
51:52
There's a lot of fear, what will people think. Every day that we don't be present with our kids is a day we'll never get back. Be brave and set boundaries on your work, is my approach.
Catherine Oliver
52:25
Wayne is right - it depends how much she has worked in the last year - working families has a good overview of this
Meindert Van wensen
52:34
@Brian What is the longterm impact of that lost day with may son?
Brian Ballantyne
53:21
There is a ticking clock on how much time you get to spend with your kids, from age 8 mine didn't want bedtime stories any more. You career is a much longer time span. The impact? Regret
Wayne Fillis
53:31
You’ll be surprised how many of your colleagues are in the same position as you and will support you. I was asked by a colleague to work the weekend and evenings and I told them I have a young family and he immediately said it was OK and I should in no way do that extra work
James Millar
54:41
Wayne’s right. If you speak up you may be surprised by the positive reaction. Lots of companies are really keen to embrace flexible working and support parents. If someone speaks up and asks for SPL or flexible working they are often very keen to make it work
Bhavit Chandrani
54:45
I have shared custody and I asked my (female) line manager if I could leave early a couple of days a week to pick up my son. She said of course, but don’t tell anyone… How is that even feasible?! Instead, I told my team exactly what I was doing and I’ve blocked it out in my diary. I shouldn’t be shamed or embarrassed for trying to be a good dad!
Catherine Oliver
54:49
@Edgar - here are some good links on SPL and what happens in different scenarios:
Catherine Oliver
54:51
https://workingfamilies.org.uk/articles/shared-parental-leave-are-you-entitled-to-it/https://www.acas.org.uk/shared-parental-leave-and-pay/checking-eligibility-for-shared-parental-leavehttps://www.gov.uk/maternity-allowance/eligibility
Meindert Van wensen
55:03
@Brian - The relationship with my son as solid as a rock. Me working night and day shows him my values in life. I will be the best role model for him. That one day, weekend, week, month that I miss out will not make an impact on y relationship with my son.
Ian Dinwiddy
55:21
@Wayne Fillis - familiar name - you don't live in Coney Hall do you?
Wayne Fillis
55:38
I do - Harvest Bank Road
Brian Ballantyne
55:46
I am only speaking about my own experience, I totally respect other people's choices. I imagine you have an interest in this, given that you are attending this webinar.
Ian Dinwiddy
56:35
Hi! I remember your awesome BBQ contributions to Wickham Common Summer Fair a few years ago!
Meindert Van wensen
57:26
@Brian - It is nt personal. I am a SAHD. But I do think it is an important issue that is under all these discussions.
Catherine Oliver
57:40
Really good points Han-Son. Definitely an opportunity for change and some risks that go with that
Wayne Fillis
58:18
Hi! I still do that at home every year (non Covid years!). @Ian Dinwiddy. Send me an email on wfillis@gmail.com and I’ll arrange you an invite to the next one…
Ian Dinwiddy
58:28
Great point Han-Son. Totally agree Rachel - communication and openness in relationships
Catherine Oliver
59:40
Most of the organisations I’m working with are talking about a hybrid model going forward
James Fox-Robinson
59:44
Lockdown has made us (as a couple) completely reassess how we parent and work. We’ve moved from both working part time and sharing the parenting fairly equally to my wife taking a full time role and I’m looking for an income that works around school runs and holidays etc. It would be great if I could look at jobs outside the education sector. Flexible working is fine, but it needs to include the option to choose the number of hours you can work in a week.
Meindert Van wensen
01:00:34
I think the conversation is much about what dads should and could do different. For them to act upon those ideas they need to have a clear purpose - what is in it for me? Tap into the Why of your fatherhood?
Catherine Oliver
01:01:16
Totally agree with Elliott
Wayne Fillis
01:01:17
At OW we have a lot of support from colleagues and managers for a good life balance because we’re realised than almost everyone wants that same as each other…. Just most were too afraid to come out and say it
James Millar
01:02:25
Meindert - I think that’s a strong point. Men need to think about ‘the why’ of their fatherhood and think about fatherhood more generally. But I’m not convinced you can only sell it as ‘what’s in it for me?’ Surely the whole basis of fatherhood is that you are not putting yourself first anymore? It’ll be interesting to see how the extra empathy we’ve all needed in 2020 beds in, if at all.
Meindert Van wensen
01:02:40
When I call home. I always speak to my mom. My dad is an option that is offered. I want that to be different with my own kids. My mom was always home when I grew up. My dad worked.
Peter Brand
01:03:11
Imagine if more Dads helped out more at home , saw their partner as equal, challenged their own biases - better home life, partner happier, children learn equal respect - win win (note to self by the way not a preach)
James Millar
01:03:36
Elliott is right. Obv. We need to cash in this moment and make change stick. There’s the outline of a plan at the top of workingdads.co.uk
Meindert Van wensen
01:04:01
@James - thanks. But by working night and day, father do NOT put themselves first. They do it out of their love for the family, their kids!
James Millar
01:04:15
My mantra for 2021 will be the pay off from Barack Obama’s recent BBC interview - change is possible, but you’ve got to be part of it
Brian Ballantyne
01:04:45
I think that work is addictive and presenteeism is often down to fear
Meindert Van wensen
01:07:02
@Brian - great point. The reverse question is “how can we make the family & presenteeism addictive?”
Matthew Godsmark
01:07:19
Great point Michael! I've been called a great dad just because I vaguely know my way round a routine, can handle on my own etc!
Catherine Oliver
01:07:47
Or the favourite - are you babysitting your kids…to a dad
James Fox-Robinson
01:07:50
Meindert - dads who work every hour of the day are most likely doing so because they are only engaging with certain stereotypes such as provider. Reinventing masculinity means we can engage in a different way - sharing the load by being carer, cook etc.
Phill
01:07:54
fully agree Michael
Jagjeet Padam
01:08:15
Agree James, great point
James Millar
01:08:25
Michael is right about the comments and expectations of dads. One of the interesting takeaways from 2020 is going to be the death of banter. If you’re not in the office you don’t have to put up with those ‘part timer’ jibes or the comments about ‘who wears the trousers in your house’. Flexible working will be a big change as a result of things this year. But I wonder to what extent the death of banter could actually end up having an even bigger impact in changing the culture…
Alison Phillips
01:08:39
Agreed James. Toxic Masculinity.
Catherine Oliver
01:09:22
Great point on adjusting policy to not to so focused on mums but instead more equal
Catherine Oliver
01:09:32
*to be not so...
Steven Alderson
01:09:37
I quite agree, Michael. Look at the number of sitcoms and advertisements which show men as being a bit useless.
James Fox-Robinson
01:09:51
James - really interested in the concept of lost banter as I think it makes it harder for us to model something different?
James Millar
01:10:44
Good point James. The positives of binning banter are clear. But there may be negatives too in the remote world in that you can’t role model so publicly.
Jagjeet Padam
01:11:32
On the flip side, food for thought, what you role model to your kids, will influence them when they are older
Alison Phillips
01:11:40
TOTALLY agreed.
Brian Ballantyne
01:11:45
It's always been hard to educate childcare and schools that we want them to call me first in an emergency or issue rather than my wife. They default to the mother
James Fox-Robinson
01:12:11
James - more important than ever to give men the opportunity to chat this stuff though informally.
Baiba Ziga
01:12:35
couldn’t agree more with all of your points! policies are maternally focussed, companies needing to use this window of opportunity to completely rethink their ways of working and ways of engaging with their employees, and the fact that government and institutions are perpetuating this way of thinking and quite literally dont see dad as an equal or worthy parent.
Jagjeet Padam
01:12:53
I never saw my own dad, was working all the hours available, and sadly that made me the polar opposite - to never miss an opportunity with my kids, injections, school plays, school play days. So enriching, but often the only dad there...
Jagjeet Padam
01:13:16
(working full time by the way)
Meindert Van wensen
01:13:21
@Jagjeet - so true. And in today’s society a lot of parents role model a dual career life. Is that an improvement of the past . . . . . ?
Alison Phillips
01:13:41
Jagieet - well done!! This is what we need!! breaking the cycle.
Sheetal Nagraj
01:13:47
Absolutely Right Elliott, I have had a colleague tell me once - I need to leave early I am baby-sitting. I hadto remind him it is parenting not baby sitting your own kids.
James Fox-Robinson
01:13:49
Jagjeet - that’s really hard. are there ways we can encourage other dads to get involved in these things?
Jagjeet Padam
01:14:27
I honestly think, it's self fulfilling, taking that time out and seeing the impact to your kids - seeing how it effects them, it's so visible
Sheetal Nagraj
01:14:28
Very pleased to hear the comments from the panellists - it is definitiely changing - bit slowly.
David Nayler
01:14:45
You don't really have any choice but to have early contact with the kids from the moment of birth if you have twins! #bestjobever
Jagjeet Padam
01:15:22
Meindert - it can be, but I think it's how you make it work, with the kids as the focal point, their experience.
James Millar
01:16:03
Elliott - WHAT ABOUT A BOOK THAT FEATURES LOTS OF ROLE MODELS AND DIFFERENT STORIES ABOUT FATHERHOOD??
Meindert Van wensen
01:16:42
@Jagjeet - My experience with millennial parents is that they do admire an equal important focus on their career as one fo the factors of success in their life.
Jagjeet Padam
01:17:32
Also, great to see so many passionate people on here, clearly things are changing :)
Wayne Fillis
01:18:16
I have twins - they were born 4 years apart though lol
Meindert Van wensen
01:18:23
@Jagjeet - I get it. Women step up into the labour labour market. But dads do not step down. A race to the top in modern day families. On behalf of their relationships and thus development of their kids.
Jane Myers
01:18:28
my husband to this day complains of HIS backache from the birth of our first child!
Sheetal Nagraj
01:18:40
Why don't Dads share you think?
Brian Ballantyne
01:19:05
Men don't tend to open up (re. a wider mental health discussion)
James Fox-Robinson
01:19:17
Sheetal - centuries of confined masculinity
James Millar
01:20:38
Male friendship is a big issue that not enough thought is given to. If anyone wants to write a book on it with me in 2021 then get in touch…
Brian Ballantyne
01:20:54
Happy to collaborate James
James Fox-Robinson
01:20:59
James - i’m in!
Dinesh Yogendra
01:21:30
completely agree on this. my son was born 3 months premature and I still suffer today thinking about the worry I had for both him and my wife. my wife received months of mental health support and I received none.
Wayne Fillis
01:21:31
Me too
Jane Myers
01:21:34
men need to be encouraged to have a support network like women do - they never know they need it until they need it so best to be planned in advance
Peter Brand
01:21:38
All links into the horrific male suicide rate
Maria Farina
01:21:51
presence not presents
Wayne Fillis
01:21:59
@James M - me too - would like to work with you - wfillis@gmail.com
Meindert Van wensen
01:22:04
Michael = great point. Children with great attachment relation with fathers do so much better. Can you explain this a bit more!
Roy Collie
01:22:08
Here here :-)
Baiba Ziga
01:22:18
I LOVED this final sentence from you Michael!!
Jagjeet Padam
01:22:29
Really good point Michael
James Fox-Robinson
01:22:37
LOVE = TIME. this is so true. the day i learnt to put down my phone at 3.30pm was life changing.
Meindert Van wensen
01:23:27
LOVE = TIME / it is a great point. But I do know friends with better / deeper relationships with their dad, although their mom was always home.
David Nayler
01:23:51
A wish without a plan is just a dream...
Brian Ballantyne
01:24:24
Well that's the challenge on Mums, having to do a lot of the practical things with kids, and Dads being the "fun parent", so we need to look at parenthood more broadly, as Michael says
Meindert Van wensen
01:24:30
Hallelujah Michael!
Sheetal Nagraj
01:24:37
Good discussion - thank you all!
Catherine Oliver
01:24:47
Thanks all, really great session - panellists and chat. As someone else said, great to see so many others as passionate
Jagjeet Padam
01:25:23
Enjoy it :)
Alex Bird
01:25:53
such good points Michael!
James Millar
01:25:53
The original fatherhood matters panel in the summer was good but this lot have been even better!
Marija Cuculic
01:25:59
Michael, everything you say is gold
Brian Ballantyne
01:26:03
Yes agreed James :)
Peter Brand
01:26:59
Courage , agree Elliott!!
Brian Ballantyne
01:27:23
Totally agree Elliott
James Millar
01:27:29
Courage speaks to courage everywhere
Brian Ballantyne
01:27:43
Thanks so much!!
Karen Lothian
01:27:48
Thanks you
Ankit Khanna
01:27:50
Thanks so much. Bye
Rebecca Candy
01:27:53
Thank you