Zoom Logo

ISRAELI PALESTINIAN PEACE SIMULATION - Shared screen with speaker view
John Spritzler
50:50
The conflict is NOT between “Israel” versus “Palestine” or between “Palestinians” versus “Jews.” The conflict is actually between the haves and the have-nots, as I show in great detail in my article, “Israel’s Government Attacks Ordinary Jews As Well As Palestinians” at https://www.pdrboston.org/israel-s-government-attacks-jews-to .
David Mandel
53:46
I have a question but wasn't called on. The 14 million excludes millions more Palestinians who were forced from their homes and homeland. If I were a Palestinian anywhere, I couldn't accept that. Will their rights be recognized and will they be included in this confederation system?
abraham Weizfeld Phd
55:40
Of course David Mandel is correct.
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
56:12
I'd like to add to David Mandel's question. Can we include Jews and/or Israelis who are living outside of Palestine/Israel and wish to be part of the Confederation?
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
56:29
For example, can we add Josef Avesar?
Rochelle Cleaver
57:56
Since Israelis and Palestinians have different cultures, can they work together in a common government?
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
58:31
Rochelle, Ofer Casif is proof that they can work together.
Giacomo Valentini
58:34
But Palestinians living abroad have little reason to vote for local issues in the PA/IS area. I'm Italian living in the US, and voting in Italian elections - I have more interest in voting in the US where I now live.
Asim Altamimi
58:48
Americans are from different cultures. They have a common government.
abraham Weizfeld Phd
59:33
The US melting pot has failed.
Naceer
59:44
I understood that the governments of Palestine and Israel would decide who is their citizens. Therefore, the Palestine government would be able to make Palestinians in exile citizens.
Naceer
01:00:14
So it would not be the confederation, but the respective governments that would do this
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:00:25
Naceer is right
Asim Altamimi
01:00:49
What would give the IPC government teeth?
Itay Nagar
01:01:04
david mandel, are you counting Palestinians who were born outside of palestine as ones who were ‘forced out from their home’?
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:01:52
As a second-generation holocaust survivor i would affirm that Palestinian generations are all Palestinians with the Right of Return.
David Mandel
01:01:54
@Giacomo, that is true of course, but the point is that under the status quo, a Jew anywhere can immigrate to Israel and obtain full political rights, but millions of Palestinians in exile cannot even visit their homeland. If each "side" under this confederation has veto power over joint laws, that won't change until there's a huge transformation in Israeli Jewish consciousness -- quite a utopian undertaking.
Jasin Omar
01:02:27
maybe in the future expelled Palestinian arabs will be allowed to participate in the Alia. arabs and jews who consider the Holy land thier homeland can return.
Naceer
01:02:33
@abraham- yes indeed.
David Mandel
01:02:39
Itay Nagar: Of course. They don't lose their fundamental rights because they were born abroad.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:04:30
Perhaps if the separate Palestinians and Israelis two state solution will not work, then this one-state solution will work.
David Mandel
01:04:52
The questions about refugee right of return lead to another fundamental one: It seems the core responsibility of a federal government must be to guarantee equal human and civil rights for all. The separate national factions cannot have veto power over that.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:05:48
You ae all getting hung up on smaller issues. Please consider the large picture.
Itay Nagar
01:05:50
David Mandel, I see. How many generations does that ‘fundamental right’ carries to?
Giacomo Valentini
01:06:07
@David the IPC can set rules for Palestinians living abroad to vote by mail ballot - hopefully a first step towards expanding the rights of Palestinians who while living abroad, still feel connected to their original homeland.
Alan Martinson
01:07:07
I agree that Palestinian are not properly represented in the vote if there is no right of return up front
David Mandel
01:07:29
Itay, please ask the same question of the Israeli government, which claims to represent Jews everywhere and insists on their right to "return" after 2,000+ years. How many generations is that?
Rochelle Cleaver
01:07:49
Could we please consider the IPC Constitution and not side issues.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:08:21
Can we consider the big picture here please?
Jasin Omar
01:08:43
jews can return to thier homeland regardless of the amount of generations.Palestinians have the same right. equality for all.
Itay Nagar
01:09:14
Mandel, I don’t think Jews who were born outside of Israel have any ‘right’ to return to Israel. If the government or the Israeli people want to grant them that privilege it’s up to them. It’s not a ‘right’ they have.
John Spritzler
01:09:41
The fact that the Israeli upper ruling class treats Palestinians like dirt is the REAL issue; the IPC is the side issue.
David Mandel
01:10:48
Rochelle and others: Sorry, but the right to return to one's homeland is fundamental, declared in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, among other places. And it is central to Palestinian consciousness -- no way a "side issue."
Len Bennett
01:10:51
When there is a Palestine, they can invite in whoever they want.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:11:18
Moral issues are not the concern here.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:11:40
I mean that Palestinians are "treated like dirt."
David Mandel
01:12:18
How is that not a moral issue?
John Spritzler
01:12:32
The Israeli billionaire upper ruling class treats Palestinians like dirt for the purpose of making of them a bogieman enemy to control working class Israeli Jews, as I show here: https://www.pdrboston.org/israel-s-government-attacks-jews-to
Elly Levy
01:12:50
that is why preconditions are counterproductive for this IPC modality, at least for the purposes at hand, inasmuch as you've to get the 2 horses inside historical Palestine to come to the water before we can talk about drinking the water of the diasporic communities rightto return
Rochelle Cleaver
01:12:54
That is amoral issue and here we are discussing the IPC Constitution.
Giacomo Valentini
01:13:31
One could argue that the PA should be able to legislate on the right of return of Palestinians just as the Israeli government can re. alia. So not necessarily an IPC issue but an issue for PA and Israeli gvts. The IPC could facilitate a process for settling this issue.
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
01:13:59
Ofer, Will "eliminating the occupation" allow Jews to settle anywhere in Israel/Palestine? Or will Palestine allow only Palestinians and only Israel will allow both Palestinians and Israelis to be citizens?
David Mandel
01:14:32
Giacomo, if 46% of the Jewish parliament has veto power, do you really believe that will happen?
Itay Nagar
01:14:51
David Mandel, how many generations that are born outside of Palestine get to claim it as their homeland?
Rochelle Cleaver
01:15:10
I can see that there is no point in discussing anything with both of you. Both of you are just OBstructionists and are not interested in making any progress.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:15:31
Au revoir.
David Mandel
01:15:45
Itay, I answered already. Identity is a subjective thing, so that's for Palestinians to answer.
shahira
01:16:00
i believe and correct me if i am wrong The Oslo accords do not allow the PA to give people of palestinian descent ( with proof) the palestinian identity
David Mandel
01:17:06
One of the many failures of the Oslo accords, Shahira. Israel maintains control over who can enter the country.
shahira
01:17:43
thanks David
Itay Nagar
01:18:27
If identity is subjective, anyone could have the right to live anywhere. Makes no sense.
esther robbins
01:19:18
unfortunately ,I need to leave and will listen to the recording for the rest of this interesting meeting Thanks
Rochelle Cleaver
01:19:43
In 1947 the UN awarded Israel to the Jews. It is their right to decide who does and does not live there. It is the Jewish state. If others do not like the decision of the Jews, move elsewhere.
shahira
01:19:57
identity is never subjective.To prove identity you need documents to substantiate your identity
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
01:19:59
Ofer, the ultra orthodox are growing rapidly in numbers and soon they will be the majority in Israel.
NaceeR
01:20:12
That was a great comment: "A receipt for Stagnation"
David Mandel
01:21:19
Itay, we're not talking about "anyone" and "anywhere." We're talking about Palestinians' right to return to their homeland, and their right to have a Palestinian identity, the same right that the state of Israel grants all Jews.
Bernice Zohn
01:21:24
I'm so sorry, but also have to leave & will be happy to receive the recording
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:22:29
@Rochelle Cleaver legally, it was not Israel that was proclaimed in 1947 since the Zionist militias went beyond the partition frontier.
Itay Nagar
01:23:12
David, so you should pick one. Either identity is subjective, or there should be a sensible limit to how many generations can claim a right to return to Israel.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:23:14
The thinking is so convulited here, that I don't even know what you are all talking about. Do any of you?
David Mandel
01:23:15
That makes no sense. Hamas is a political party.
Giacomo Valentini
01:23:15
I agree with Omer that IPC should as much as possible prevent divisions among Palestinians and accepting both Hamas and PA risks entrenching divisions.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:24:17
You were all asked to agree or not the Constitution, not bring up individual problems. What are you all talking about?
David Mandel
01:25:09
And I voted against the Constitution because it fails to resolve fundamental problems that must be addressed first.
Elly Levy
01:26:36
that is why preconditions are counterproductive for this IPC modality, at least for the purposes at hand, inasmuch as you've to get the 2 horses inside historical Palestine to come to the water before we can talk about drinking the water of the diasporic communities rightto return
NaceeR
01:29:13
@Elly- the problem is that there will no water left when the decisions are made. It is easy to take this decision when you are drinking the water
NaceeR
01:29:23
to use your analogy.
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
01:30:57
If "the land does not belong to any religion", then why are Jews connected to the Land of Israel? Why should Jews be allowed to settle in any of Palestine?
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:30:57
@Cassif is right on common national rights in addition to individual rights.
John Spritzler
01:31:36
It is NOT a national conflict; it is a CLASS conflict, as I show at https://www.pdrboston.org/israel-s-government-attacks-jews-to
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
01:32:02
Ofer, If 20% of Israel are Palestinians, can 20% of Palestine be Israeli?
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
01:32:36
John Spritizier, It is also a religious conflict between Muslims and Jews.
NaceeR
01:32:47
@Rabbi- Yes, as equal citizens.. yes
shahira
01:33:15
Rabbi Ophir you asked a very important question that needs answering
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
01:33:30
Thank you Shahira.
Elly Levy
01:33:31
naceer, hhhhhh, like what you said, the drought is a given, de facto and metaphorically, so now we have to talk about the conditions antecedent to replenishing the water and then it becomes a tautological discussion as to egg versus chicken, but you are right..
John Spritzler
01:34:17
The Israeli government funds Hamas and works to keep it in power in Gaza, in order to make the Palestinian bogieman enemy as frightening to Jews as possible, in order for the Israeli upper class to be able to dominate and oppress working class Israeli Jews to get richer. Here’s the evidence: https://www.pdrboston.org/israeli-leaders-hamas-need-each-oth
abraham Weizfeld Phd
01:35:44
The Federation of Palestinian and Hebrew Nationshttps://www.academia.edu/38380122/The_Federation_of_Palestinian_and_Hebrew_Nationshttps://www.cambridgescholars.com/product/978-1-5275-1313-6
David Mandel
01:37:42
Rabbi Ophir: Yes, Jews who feel connected to the land of Israel should have the right to live there, but not to dominate the Palestinian people who already lived there, and certainly not to steal their land, expel them from the country, deny their individual and national rights.
Rabbi Dr. Natan Ophir
01:42:24
David, I invite you to visit us here in Jerusalem and to meet with our Palestinian friends who are living here.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:43:44
Globalization doesn't work then, I guess?
NaceeR
01:45:32
@Rabbi... David knows many Palestinians and works with them. He is very familiar with us
Itay Nagar
01:48:52
sounds like hamas…
NaceeR
01:50:25
I voted no since Qalandia should be removed.
David Mandel
01:50:53
I'm with NaceeR on that.
Rochelle Cleaver
01:52:44
I am sure that Hamas also opposed education, especially for women., but education is really job training. then women could not work either because they had no education and could not read or write.
Libby PA
01:52:45
only by working together on the economic zone can changes about resources be resolved
shahira
01:53:09
how can u exclude the hamas leader he was democratically elected
NaceeR
01:53:35
@Rochelle- I think you are clueless. Palestinian women are the majority in universities.
NaceeR
01:54:55
I think this vote on Qalandia is not clear. It implies that the checkpoint will remain
Itay Nagar
01:55:08
NaceeR, I’m asking because I really don’t know, is that true of the universities in Gaza?
Len Bennett
01:57:04
Under international law, Israel is the reconstituted homeland of the Jews. Jews have lived there for 4000 years.
shahira
01:57:35
So have the Palestinians
Len Bennett
01:58:15
No Arab was called A Palestinian till Arafat in 1964.
Itay Nagar
01:58:40
Len, so…?
Elly Levy
01:59:04
that's the problem: let the opressor define the victim
David Mandel
02:00:28
Len, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
shahira
02:02:52
not true palestinians have existed as a people from biblical timearabs are the people that live in the Arabian peninsula not in any other country that speaks Arabic.Egyptians Syrians Iraqis MorrocansAlgerians Tunisians are never referred to as Arabs
Elly Levy
02:03:06
I was born in Israel as a jew, but how can I , in all consciousness, consider an ethnocracy to be my homeland. I refuse to let the happenstance of my birth lend legitimacy to a "homeland" whose salient sin quo non is jewish supremacy
Nerina Cecchin
02:04:31
Peace within before peace outside
abraham Weizfeld Phd
02:05:42
Zionist Supremacy not Jewish
Rochelle Cleaver
02:06:37
Since 1967 the Israelis have always been wiling to cede land for peace. Since there is o peace, soon the Palestinians will be out on the ocean. Harder to launch rockets from the ocean.
Charles Fredricks
02:06:39
Len, re Jews living in the area for 4000 years, more like 3000, and so has everybody else: Cananites (5000), Christians (1500-2000 years), Buddhists (2500) etc, etc. Are you willing to live in peace and justice with those of other faiths, or not, is the question, without resorting to tradition to justify giving yourself a superior position. If you claim this is God-given, I must reply you are not God; you cannot grant yourself this right. Claiming so is simply ‘might makes right.’ Can we not move on from this?
Elly Levy
02:07:59
to abraham, you're correct, nothing rreally jewish about it, except when it comes to Israel's hegemony, for the Palestinians, its a difference without distinction, but I accept your premise as true
abraham Weizfeld Phd
02:08:10
sharia - The Arab League includes all, even though the Maghreb are Berbers.
Elly Levy
02:09:02
actually, I mwant difference without a distinction, as far as perception, for the collective palestinian
shahira
02:09:42
The word Palestine derives from Philista the name given by the Greek writers to the land of the Philistinesplease refer to Britanica for more info
Libby PA
02:10:25
over the years, setting preconditions has ended up being used as a non starter get to the table and work together to solve the deepest problems
David Mandel
02:11:52
Rochelle, you need to do some serious reading of history. It's exactly the opposite: Israel has never been serious about "land for peace," which is a false premise to begin with, except under pressure or if it saw other advantage -- for instance removing a few settlements from Gaza to solidify permanent control in the West Bank.
Rochelle Cleaver
02:13:02
I do not agree with you.
David Mandel
02:15:36
Ofer, Is two states as you describe even feasible any more, given the massive settlement project and even more than that, the lack of political will? "Two states" has become a mantra for American politicians enabling them to pretend they're reasonable. Repeating the mantra blocks them from addressing the real human rights basis that must underlie a solution.
Elly Levy
02:20:07
yup
Itay Nagar
02:22:19
Amnon, didn’t Hamas issued a new charter in 2017?
Co-host Dan
02:23:38
Use meeting ID 817 7735 5099 password 773071
Itay Nagar
02:26:35
Amnon, look it up
Itay Nagar
02:28:25
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
Itay Nagar
02:47:19
So Israel forced Gazans to vote for Hamas?
David Mandel
02:50:10
Israel facilitated the creation of Hamas in the 1980s to compete with the PLO.
David Mandel
02:53:14
It's very convenient to maintain control over a disaster like Gaza by finding a modus vivendi with the party that at the same time you undermine its ability to act on the world stage. Fostering Hamas' conflict with Fatah/PA is a bonus.
David Mandel
02:55:41
Democratic when 5 million people under Israel's control have no poltical rights?
David Mandel
02:55:59
And that's just for starters.
shahira
02:56:23
when half the population cannot vote ie palestinians how can this be a democracy
David Mandel
02:56:57
The Nakba started long before the half-hearted intervention by Arab states in 1948.Len, you need to open your mind to historical facts.
Itay Nagar
03:01:41
Ofer, so do you think that the refugees problem would still exist if the Palestinian leadership accepted the partition in 1948?
David Mandel
03:02:33
That is fiction.
David Mandel
03:04:15
Amnon, have you spent any time with Palestinians in Israel? Apparently not. It's a combination of Jim Crow and ethnic cleansing.
Marguerite Kealey
03:04:33
Why is thei guy Amon allowed to interrupt all the time. He is extremely rude. Please mute him. since he does not allow guests orothers to talk.