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Secure Data Storage - WG - Shared screen with gallery view
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
08:21
Can we start with the definitions for EDV and Hub?
Orie Steele (Transmute)
09:19
I think thats the plan
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
09:28
+1
Adrian Gropper
10:40
Can we review the Solid meetings to start?
Juan Caballero
12:08
I only caught the second half of the CCG one, but I did have questions about the WebID stuff
Heather Vescent
13:05
Sorry I am late. I can speak to CCG/Solid comments
Dmitri Zagidulin
14:00
@juan - nice. what about WebID?
Manu Sporny
15:06
q+
Juan Caballero
15:29
Well... they were talking about it as a persistent personal identifier and mapping the WebID/WebID-URL to the DID/DID-URL, not sure I understood that bit
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
15:32
q+
Chris Were
16:02
Is there a recording link to this call?
Heather Vescent
16:12
Yes, pls hold and I will share the meeting minutes.
Dmitri Zagidulin
16:18
@juan - does the discussion over at https://github.com/solid/specification/issues/217 help? (with regards to WebIDs vs DIDs)
Juan Caballero
16:28
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2021-03-10/
Heather Vescent
16:38
q+
Chris Were
16:43
Thanks!
Manu Sporny
17:36
q+ to be concerned about our scope ballooning out of control.
Daniel Buchner
18:46
q+
Adrian Gropper
19:14
q+
Dmitri Zagidulin
19:16
why, that segways to today's main topic, Manu! :)
Juan Caballero
19:19
wow that thread is great, thanks Dmitri!
Orie Steele (Transmute)
19:27
Lets reinvent solid from scratch using IPFS and rebrand it as Identity Hubs!!!!!!
Dmitri Zagidulin
19:36
@orie - good idea. I'm on it!
Kaliya Identity Woman
19:46
<3
Daniel Buchner
19:52
We started Hubs at mozilla in 2012 - did Solid exist then?
Daniel Buchner
20:18
Just saying
Dmitri Zagidulin
20:22
oh snap. let the 'i've been in this game way longer' flexing begin :)
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
20:34
Wasn't suggested this meeting become a joint meeting, if SOLID is interested in our work ...they can come here ...that's all
Daniel Buchner
20:50
(I thought that's what others started...)
Dmitri Zagidulin
20:59
hahaha no worries
Dmitri Zagidulin
21:01
q+
Chris Were
21:03
Is there anyone in the group who feels they have a deep enough understanding of SOLiD and EDV’s who could present a meaningful comparison of overlaps and differences?
Orie Steele (Transmute)
22:04
RESOLVED: we are sending Daniel to SOLID
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
22:06
+1 DB
Orie Steele (Transmute)
22:06
:)
Chris Were
22:07
+1 to daniel
Heather Vescent
22:15
Lol @orie
Manu Sporny
22:32
Chris Were -- I'd say Dmitri does have a deep enough understanding.
Daniel Buchner
22:47
If I am being shipped to Solid, Adrian goes to UMA, right?
Manu Sporny
22:55
lol
Dmitri Zagidulin
22:59
yessss. cross-cultural exchange programs everywhere!
Neil Thomson
23:20
and the Semantic Container work out of ownyourdata...
Dmitri Zagidulin
23:36
@Chris - I think the simplest summary of differences between Solid and EDV is -- so, EDVs would make a nice storage backend for Solid pods.
Daniel Buchner
24:44
"Let's talk about scope ba-by, let's talk about E-D-V"
Chris Were
25:05
Sure. As a key project in this space it feels like it’s worth a conversation in a bit of depth one week.
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
25:06
q+
Dmitri Zagidulin
25:16
https://hackmd.io/qClYLUPkQ7uf0r3_4O7BUQ
Juan Caballero
25:37
please no pop quizzes or blind taste tests
Dmitri Zagidulin
25:42
@Chris - agreed, totally. We'll have Solid present to this group, one of these weeks
Dmitri Zagidulin
26:59
q+
Adrian Gropper
28:56
q+
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
29:12
Daniel?
Chris Were
29:23
What are the top 3 use cases for hubs?
Orie Steele (Transmute)
29:55
Decentralized Twitter, Music Sharing Service, Package Manager ?
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
30:14
q+ for Daniel to speak (Can I do this? :-))
Dmitri Zagidulin
30:16
package manager? interesting
Chris Were
30:27
Ok great. So in that case, what does a hub provide that enables that beyond an EDV?
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
31:04
q+
Orie Steele (Transmute)
31:08
PROPSOSAL: Daniel to take us through the List
Orie Steele (Transmute)
31:16
And ask for objections
Dmitri Zagidulin
31:25
+1
Adrian Gropper
31:35
aq+
Adrian Gropper
31:38
q+
Juan Caballero
31:58
elegance might matter less than performance or scaleability in this context :D
Orie Steele (Transmute)
32:42
OBLIGATORY
Orie Steele (Transmute)
32:43
https://medium.com/decentralized-identity/rhythm-and-melody-how-hubs-and-agents-rock-together-ac2dd6bf8cf4
Orie Steele (Transmute)
32:57
Sorry caps
Chris Were
33:01
Daniel: A hub is a gateway / router between apps Nd EDV’s
Juan Caballero
33:07
🤘🏽🎸🥁
Orie Steele (Transmute)
33:31
EDV <> HUB <> Agent
Orie Steele (Transmute)
33:44
S3 <> Cosmos <> ChatBot
Orie Steele (Transmute)
35:04
q+ to ask about Hubs and DIDComm
Daniel Buchner
35:44
All permissions/caps come from Alice, the owner, at the edge
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
35:45
Daniel, if EDVs supported plain text objects in addition to encrypted objects, would the concept of a Hub collapse somewhat into an EDV ,,,from a storage dimension.
Daniel Buchner
35:58
yes, more so, less duplication
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
36:05
+1
Daniel Buchner
36:39
I don't agree with that
Daniel Buchner
36:52
Hubs cannot decrypt data that is intended to be encrypted
Adrian Gropper
37:11
q+
Dmitri Zagidulin
37:20
they can if you include the decryption key in the url itself :) (in urls for objects intended to be public)
Orie Steele (Transmute)
37:34
Can a Hub speak DIDComm?
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
37:56
IMO Yes
Orie Steele (Transmute)
37:56
Can a Hub speak GNAP?
Juan Caballero
38:21
^Does a hub need to if it's all public data?
Juan Caballero
38:28
(trollin')
Orie Steele (Transmute)
38:32
lulz
Orie Steele (Transmute)
38:35
You are learning
Dmitri Zagidulin
38:58
wow, juan. well done.
Manu Sporny
39:25
/me feels like we're playing a big distributed game of "blindfolded people try to describe an elephant by touching different parts of the elephant" -- and we all know how that game ends.
Chris Were
39:25
Daniel: Is a hub an application or an API or both?
Orie Steele (Transmute)
39:49
Can a hub mint NFTs?
Dmitri Zagidulin
39:57
@manu - agreed. which I think is the main challenge facing this group.
Dmitri Zagidulin
40:08
q+
Orie Steele (Transmute)
40:28
Doe hubs expose a site manifest to search engines?
Juan Caballero
40:35
I stand corrected! The GNAP might be helpful in that case for the third category
Orie Steele (Transmute)
40:38
So the public data can be indexed?
Daniel Buchner
40:47
Orie: they don't need to expose a site index
Daniel Buchner
41:00
because you have an inferential API, based on object types
Daniel Buchner
41:17
if you want schema.org/musicplaylist objects, you have the API
Orie Steele (Transmute)
41:19
So public hub content is not indexed by search engines
Orie Steele (Transmute)
41:21
?
Adrian Gropper
41:38
?
Daniel Buchner
41:45
just literally ask for Hub.get({ type: schema.org/SocialMediaPosting})
Orie Steele (Transmute)
42:02
So Hub content is public, but not indexed?
Daniel Buchner
42:02
you don't need a site index when you have inferentially knowable semantic data
Daniel Buchner
42:06
exposed BY THEIR TYPE
Orie Steele (Transmute)
42:13
Search engines don’t work like that...
Daniel Buchner
42:16
It is inferentially indexed
Daniel Buchner
42:22
they absolutely can
Adrian Gropper
42:22
is that a yes to the search engine question?
Orie Steele (Transmute)
42:32
Yes, but in a sad way
Daniel Buchner
42:41
No, in a much much better way
Daniel Buchner
43:00
today it's a clown show with crawlers, where they spray and pray at HTML pages
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
44:03
I'm content with the depth of the conversation about EDVs and Hubs today ...not satisfied but content to move into the list
Dmitri Zagidulin
44:03
sounds like Daniel is a fan of the sitemap xml standard :)
Manu Sporny
44:04
schema.org :)
Orie Steele (Transmute)
44:09
haha
Kaliya Identity Woman
44:39
That is JSON-LD - yeah?
Adrian Gropper
44:40
a directory - for the Web - what an idea!
Orie Steele (Transmute)
44:49
He is not actually answer the question about crawling, and indexing and profiling
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
44:57
The model just described is not how Twitter works
Daniel Buchner
45:11
Yes, because twitter has all the data in a single DB
Juan Caballero
45:13
https://hallanalysis.com/json-ld-generator/(still trollin')
Daniel Buchner
45:38
imagine you wanted to find all the local businesses in the world
Daniel Buchner
45:44
how would you with the Web of today?
Daniel Buchner
45:47
Not sure
Adrian Gropper
45:47
Craigslist
Orie Steele (Transmute)
45:50
Why not just use a Solid Pod, maybe we can do that instead of making a Hub?
Daniel Buchner
45:54
how would you in the world of Hubs?
Dmitri Zagidulin
45:56
I was about to say..
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
45:59
Twitter is based on the concept of Neighborhoods of Followers and Following.
Dmitri Zagidulin
46:07
that Solid actually has a spec for that. (discovery of public data on a pod)
Orie Steele (Transmute)
46:15
^ ship it!
Daniel Buchner
46:20
for (let did in dids) dids[did].hub({ type: https://schema.org/LocalBusiness })
Daniel Buchner
46:22
Boom
Daniel Buchner
46:30
just wrote a global local business finder
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
46:39
It's essentially a pub-sub model ...excluding specific searches and advertising.
Daniel Buchner
46:39
that is pure power folks
Dmitri Zagidulin
46:45
@orie - you say that now. :) there /may/ be heartburn at the amount of Turtle RDF tho, in that standard.
Orie Steele (Transmute)
46:47
What about all black owned businesses, can I find those automatically too?
Daniel Buchner
46:59
Not sure, that schema has nothing about that
Daniel Buchner
47:08
q+
Daniel Buchner
47:16
It's not intelligent
Daniel Buchner
47:32
it is a semantically indexed datastore, of which it can only see truly public data
Orie Steele (Transmute)
47:44
Sounds like a Linked Data Platform!
Dmitri Zagidulin
47:53
lol. it does tho, doesn't it
Daniel Buchner
47:54
not personally encrypted data, or multi-recip data
Orie Steele (Transmute)
47:55
https://www.w3.org/TR/ldp/
Adrian Gropper
48:10
q+
Daniel Buchner
48:18
I guess it's linked data if you had every type ref in a single context doc
Orie Steele (Transmute)
48:35
^ thats not how linked data works :)
Orie Steele (Transmute)
49:07
For example, Microsoft Digital Twin context is not in Schema.org :)
Manu Sporny
49:09
q+
Chris Were
49:21
q+
Orie Steele (Transmute)
50:16
Do Hubs use AutoMerge CRDTs?
Kaliya Identity Woman
50:32
JSON-LD
Orie Steele (Transmute)
50:33
Or do the implement their own patch based CRDT system ?
Manu Sporny
50:48
I'm with Daniel on what he just said.
Orie Steele (Transmute)
51:33
Hubs are like activity pub
Orie Steele (Transmute)
51:42
They have topics that are plaintext discoverable
Orie Steele (Transmute)
51:52
https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams
Orie Steele (Transmute)
52:08
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#inbox-property
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
52:17
Hub = intelligent public service endpoint? ...for EDV data
Daniel Buchner
52:31
YES!
Daniel Buchner
52:33
^ this
Daniel Buchner
52:39
slightly intelligent
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
52:43
Screen copied
Orie Steele (Transmute)
53:01
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#public-addressing
Daniel Buchner
53:02
only in the sense that it can layer some semantic APIs over the *intended public* objects
Dmitri Zagidulin
53:06
q: manu, chris
Orie Steele (Transmute)
53:11
“Activities addressed to this special URI shall be accessible to all users, without authentication. Implementations MUST NOT deliver to the "public" special collection; it is not capable of receiving actual activities. However, actors MAY have a sharedInbox endpoint which is available for efficient shared delivery of public posts (as well as posts to followers-only); see 7.1.3 Shared Inbox Delivery.”
Daniel Buchner
53:21
ActivityPub doesn't allow direct schema ref indexing
Daniel Buchner
53:29
Or any schema
Orie Steele (Transmute)
53:33
R u joking?
Daniel Buchner
53:36
correct, nothing to do with EDVs
Daniel Buchner
53:40
yes
Neil Thomson
53:44
+1 on Adrian's point
Daniel Buchner
53:51
orie, you have to setup the schema linkages
Daniel Buchner
54:03
it is not INFERRENTIAL
Daniel Buchner
54:14
such a simple, but massive difference
Daniel Buchner
54:45
I agree with Manu
Orie Steele (Transmute)
54:57
Lets look at the Hub list now
Daniel Buchner
55:06
EDVs can and should proceed first and take care of the > 50% of the list
Orie Steele (Transmute)
55:08
Its the longer less defined one
Neil Thomson
55:09
Data exchange for a common format is what the Human Colossus OCA model is focused on. (and services using that model) for data value and semantic mapping and transformation)
Orie Steele (Transmute)
55:28
There are more than 3 imps of edvs
Daniel Buchner
55:29
I don't want mapping
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
55:31
q+
Daniel Buchner
55:43
with inferential object calls, you don't need a map
Daniel Buchner
56:02
stop mapping, stop loading middleware layers between the object types
Adrian Gropper
56:10
q+
Daniel Buchner
56:10
just allow whatever is there to be exposed by type
Daniel Buchner
56:23
no more pre-loading DB models
Adrian Gropper
56:44
@Manu - Can a RO subscribe to notifications from an EDV?
Daniel Buchner
56:49
^ THAT is the anti-pattern that kills inferential object refs
Daniel Buchner
56:54
oops
Daniel Buchner
56:57
not what Adrian said
Orie Steele (Transmute)
56:57
Daniel have you seen https://snowplowanalytics.com/blog/2014/05/15/introducing-self-describing-jsons/
Orie Steele (Transmute)
57:07
It does exactly what you want!
Daniel Buchner
57:20
I assure you I have seen them all after the last 10 years
Orie Steele (Transmute)
57:38
Yes, lets define hubs
Orie Steele (Transmute)
57:48
Daniel take us through a list of hubs features
Daniel Buchner
58:01
Orie, that's a way to discover - let's kill discovery of maps altogether
Orie Steele (Transmute)
58:43
They are the same… just JSON Schema is for data shape not semantics....
Manu Sporny
58:50
Definition of what an EDV is: https://hackmd.io/w1Kz3eB2R5G7XD-oyYAC_w
Orie Steele (Transmute)
58:51
You are still filtering on a string....
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
59:10
+1 Chris
Manu Sporny
01:00:11
What happened is that no one created the list to vote on :)
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:00:28
And we don’t have agreement on ANY LIST
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:00:35
There is no list
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:00:47
And my proposal was to read the existing list
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:00:53
And let folks object
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:01:05
To each item
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:01:11
Until there are no objections less
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:01:14
left
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:01:37
q+
Daniel Buchner
01:02:55
I apologize if I talked too much
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
01:03:00
+1
Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
01:03:07
+1
Chris Were
01:03:19
q+
benjamin.goering@dfinity.org
01:03:22
More than just reading/objecting is making resolutions like “RESOLVED: there are no objections to requirement A”
benjamin.goering@dfinity.org
01:03:30
(And voting?)
Orie Steele (Transmute)
01:03:48
The list contains both topics.....