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Digital Identity: Blueprinting the Way for Journalism and Privacy - Shared screen with speaker view
ITEGA / Bill Densmore
29:56
Mini bios of discussion catalysts are here: https://www.itega.org/participants
Ben Moskowitz
40:22
CR’s model bill:
Ben Moskowitz
40:24
https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/CR_Model-State-Privacy-Act_022321_vf.pdf
ITEGA / Bill Densmore
49:00
So does that mean under EU or California privacy the consumer user will have to give consent to those decryptions all about the ad ecosystem?
Michelle De Mooy
50:33
What happens if an entity doesn’t follow the rules in UI 2.0?
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
50:37
As far as I know, the UID2.0 transfers the output of the hashing algo (salted, hashed email), rather than the email. This means that anyone who wants to use the UID2.0 needs to have the email and the salt to recreate the UID2.0, as well as the encryption key to do match.
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
50:46
That roughly right?
Doc Searls
50:51
Do readers actually want this?
Todd Davies (he/they)
51:56
As an alternative to ad revenue, Bill, have you looked at mechanisms to make it easier for users to make micropayments? David Brin has put forward one possible model. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13KTZhn7CXc
Doc Searls
52:18
Personally speaking, I was appalled to find that Apple actually had an "IDFA—ID for advertisers." And I'm glad that they're making it defaulted to off, soon.
James Vasile
53:02
I can't imagine any users who want some kind of universal tracking number for their browsing activity.
Doc Searls
53:22
Serious question: can anyone name a brand known to the world that was made by tracking-based adtech?
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
56:51
Doc, James, the goal is to move the process that was "server asks client to store ID" (third party cookies) to "website asks human to disclose ID" (email based cross-site). That presents an opportunity to force verification of consent seeking.
ITEGA / Bill Densmore
57:07
James is right — Third-party verification is essential. That’s why it is exciting that TTD has got PreBid operating UID2. BUT, there needs to be an independent, third-party, public-focused governance authority.
James Vasile
01:00:16
I'm not sure I see users loving the opportunity to provide pro forma consent like they do for GDPR cookie nags
Doc Searls
01:00:38
Facebook and Google, and big tech in general, are elephants in the room... full of mosquitos. UID2 to me is better mosquitos.
ITEGA / Bill Densmore
01:01:44
Could the open-web ad-tech ecosystem that includes TTD and others have a viable business if the idea of matching INDIVIDUAL users interests across sites just plain went away, or was illegal?
Michelle De Mooy
01:01:48
Attaching a hash to a piece of personal data is just mimicking third party cookies - with little to no transparency - though at least UID2 is a logged in value so requires consent. But publishers have to get it and don’t seem to know how to do it.
Doc Searls
01:02:22
Brendan, yes it does, but can we not imagine an Internet that isn't based on the norms of tracking-based adtech? I think we can.
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:06:17
Doc - yes, there's a cocktail of techniques that allow greater advertising revenue than blind ad delivery, including page context, exclusively first party data, client-side collected global behavior through cohorts, and then the deterministic 1:1 ID system proposed through UID2.0 and other hashed email systems.
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:07:37
In my opinion, pubs and users should be able to negotiate to their comfort level of disclosure and need, varying the offered access in an informed exchange of data access.
James Vasile
01:08:22
Users don't want to spend time negotiating, and publishers will make those negotiations as inscrutable as the cookie notices currently are.
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:10:38
James, "negotiating" from the user is choosing Brave over Chrome, or enabling GPC signal, and so on. From the publisher it's "you have 3 free articles before you log in", and "subscriber access only".
Doc Searls
01:11:07
When one opts out on a website, is there any way for people to audit compliance? Serious question. I don't know.
James Vasile
01:12:33
Brendan, sure, users are already doing that, so that makes sense. Still, granularity is hard. :/
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:14:09
Doc, the NAI/DAA opt-out would specifically set the identity cookie to null value so that it was verifiably useless. With more server-side, it's more depending on companies being averse to fines to ensure good behavior - can't really let all random users access to company DB to check where their info might be.
Doc Searls
01:14:23
Is there any hope that a publisher can help make a brand by not tracking people and just advertising to populations of shared interests? Which is how nearly all brands known to the world were made?
Noreen Whysel
01:14:35
Doc, I’m doing some of that audit work with Zach at Me2B. Its more apparent with apps than websites. There are cookie blockers like Privacy Badger that can tell you what they stopped.
Todd Davies (he/they)
01:14:37
The main value Google and FB offer to advertisers is not just profile data for an individual user, but prediction, based on aggregated data across billions of users. How would UID address this?
Noreen Whysel
01:15:25
Users say they don’t know how to tell. If their data is being tracked or used, ultimately, how would they know it was one adtech company or SDK versus another?
Doc Searls
01:16:15
Because what adtech has done is change the meaning of advertising from advertising (of the kind that made the world's brands, and was not personal) to direct marketing (which does want to get personal, and needs personal identity). The difference between the two is vast, but rhetorically absent, because bother called advertising.]
James Vasile
01:17:12
That is the crucial difference, Doc. People don't want a personal relationship with the vast majority of the web products they touch.
James Vasile
01:18:02
Isn't that what COIL is trying to do?
Doc Searls
01:18:15
Yes, James, to some degree.
Doc Searls
01:18:20
Coil.
Ben Moskowitz
01:19:39
Coil is cool. Not sure the specific solution is right, but you see the building blocks there
Doc Searls
01:20:02
https://coil.com/
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:20:16
User based advertising allows a site to multiply their inventory - that's the basic premise of user targeting. The running site example can sell run of site for a certain value, while Facebook can sell the specific audience more efficiently, and then sell other inventory to other brands. Regardless of user goals, the math of efficiently selling inventory give long term advantage to publications who understand their audience and sell these insights.
Noreen Whysel
01:20:23
They are more willing to accept data sharing when they have a personal relationship with the technology, not so much when they don’t.
James Vasile
01:20:30
Coil is very cool. The underlying web monetization infrastructure is completely separable and if Coil isn't the right specific solution, you can build other types of things on top of those blocks.
Scott Bradner
01:22:19
he is describing shibboleth which does all those thgings
Dazza Greenwood
01:23:25
What Bill O is talking about is an essential element to the overall solution for personal data ownership and control. He’s describing a general approach to start solving for providing an “identity” that operates like an account that can be attributed to the individual not be a part of the systems they have accounts with. If the federation or other ID login account operated of/by/for the account holders this would be a very complete solution type. Shibboleth, by contrast, just extends existing accounts we have to login to other accounts we have. None of those are =“ours”.
Noreen Whysel
01:23:45
My 24yo loves micropayments to support publishing platforms. Patreon and the cup of coffee one that I can’t remember the name of.
Dazza Greenwood
01:24:45
Sorry - someone at the door - be right back.
Linda Miller
01:25:26
It’s interesting to me how little has been said about trust.
Jo Ellen Kaiser
01:25:34
I want to give our speakers permission to leave if you all need to go to meetings. We appreciate you. But I hope you can stay on a bit for this open conversation.
James Vasile
01:26:21
Linda, what more is there to say but "users don't trust publishers"?
Joshua Wilson
01:26:29
Linda — trust is a key matter and related to the social contract between journalism producers, the companies they work for, and the communities the journalists want to serve, which for the companies are “audiences.”
Noreen Whysel
01:26:35
Trust went out the window with privacy breaches, 3d party cookies. User know it’s out there and a lot of them are just throwing up their hands.
Jo Ellen Kaiser
01:28:07
Personally, I think journalism is a public utility and should receive funds from municipalities
Richard Whitt
01:28:12
+1 Linda. Without entities that we can “trust” not to share our personal data/identity in ways that actually serve our interests, we aren’t offering much more than the status quo. Journalists and their orgs can still serve that vital trust role, although perhaps under a more express governance regime like data trust or co-op, or digital fiduciary.
Joshua Wilson
01:28:36
It’s clear that journalism financing is totally broken and the nature of financing is driving profound distrust of the companies and rejection of the public service.
Doc Searls
01:28:41
A collection of the too much I've written about this since 2008 is here: https://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/the-adblock-war/
Noreen Whysel
01:29:06
I have to go to another call now. This was a great discussion everybody.
Joshua Wilson
01:29:53
Let me throw out there that co-ops are an interesting strategy for ownership, for distributing services between news producers, and for creating new relationships between audiences/communities and news producers. How would any of these models fit into a co-op approach?
Joshua Wilson
01:30:25
(By “these models” I mean the technical privacy models discussed here.)
Richard Whitt
01:30:35
Great conversation (sorry I joined late, and need to run now). Thanks for hosting this, ITEGA.
Jo Ellen Kaiser
01:30:50
Thanks for joining us Richard!
James Vasile
01:31:15
Interestingly, the reason we need 3rd-party cookies is because the advertisers don't trust the publishers either.
Dazza Greenwood
01:31:39
The co-op or collaborative or data union etc type model is a perfect fit for entity type of an organization that could provide the unified identity for login to news that was mentioned by Bill O. This is adjacent to the entity that should also exist to provide personal data store services, where we actually keep our personal data that we own and control.
Doc Searls
01:32:34
One adtech company I consulted once told me retargeting works best when a pair of eyeballs sees an ad at least 73 times.
Joshua Wilson
01:33:14
Interestingly, in Kim Stanley Robinson’s near-future SF novel on climate change, “Ministry of the Future,” among the many policy and tech solutions explored is a public entity that becomes a replacement for Facebook that uses open-source personal privacy technology.
Doc Searls
01:33:24
How is the NYTimes doing since they backed off on much of their third-party tracking?
Ben Moskowitz
01:33:28
Love KSR
Ben Moskowitz
01:34:06
True Brendan, but in our case the economics of product testing would never work without the membership model
Doc Searls
01:34:23
Membership models rock.
Michelle De Mooy
01:34:25
Isn’t Jared Lanier’s MIDS similar to the idea of a co-ops/unions?
Ben Moskowitz
01:34:32
All the journalism is in front of the paywall, but it’s a loss leader
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:35:44
Ben totally - it makes sense! Each publication needs to figure out what audience it's trying to serve, and the attributes of that audience.
Ben Moskowitz
01:35:51
+1
Ben Moskowitz
01:35:58
we need a whole lot of solutions
Doc Searls
01:36:37
Ministry of the Future: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ministry_for_the_Future
Joshua Wilson
01:36:55
Just had a flash of a membership model that pays paying-subscribing members of a media publisher a dividend for their membership and the ad value they brig to the publisher.
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:37:24
Ministry of the Future is on my bedside table atm.
Brendan Riordan-Butterworth
01:37:43
Thanks for the prompt to get through it.
Doc Searls
01:37:47
(Not entirely) separate question: have we reached Peak Subscription?
Dazza Greenwood
01:38:19
I just purchased “Ministry for the Future” (thanks for the book tip, everyone!)
Jo Ellen Kaiser
01:38:24
Hi Brendan's kid!
James Vasile
01:38:30
Doc, not by a long shot.
Doc Searls
01:39:08
I think you're right, James.
James Vasile
01:39:30
I signed up for Coil and am developing on the platform. It's ingenious and also not fully baked at the same time.
Joshua Wilson
01:39:47
Last aside on Ministry FTF, it’s incredibly wonky with whole chapters on policy and policymakers, but there is an actual storyline through it. OK.
Ben Moskowitz
01:42:16
https://github.com/consumerreports/ccpa-authorized-agent
Craig Spiezle
01:42:19
thank you
Ben Moskowitz
01:42:22
for anyone who wants to peek in
Ben Moskowitz
01:42:23
thanks!